1930 era custom lock missing pins

[wolff]

I have a 1929 fire alarm box from NYC which used a custom style lock, Sargent seemed to make a run of them for a certain number of the boxes out of the 15,000 on the streets, but near cloned locks and castings were provided by other foundries and suppliers which have no identifying names or marks of any kind on them but most can be interchanged with one another.

The lock I need help for had all of the springs and pins removed years ago, so any key would work, I'd like to restore it back to functional condition so the real key works and feels like it works. I'll call this Lock #1

I have taken apart similar cylinders years ago, and noticed there seems to be 2 different types, one has a narrow slip of brass over the springs that is removable, the other style seemed they mechanically locked them in by dimpling the case itself,mine is that style, I don't know what these two "styles" are called.

It looks like they drilled the holes for the springs and pins from the bottom and inserted them from inside the barrel hole as there is no opening elsewhere and no removable slip of sheet brass.

Can this be restored back to functional use without it being a major affair?

Lock # 2 is clearly made by Sargent lock co and actually since the two locks are the same type the pictures are of that one as the other is still in the door.
This lock has a key and works fine, it looked so identical to lock # 1 and the Sargent key even fits it's keyway, so I thought maybe I would just swop the cylinders out since #2 is not being used, but I discovered their cylinder orientation to the lock case is 90 degrees different, the castings have milled slots for the cylinders to slide into, and lock #2's cylinder is a little larger diameter and doesn't fit into the case of #1
I suppose a little messing with could make it fit but I'd rather not do that, and the key on #2 works but it's difficult to slide in and out, maybe considerable wear in there.

These were made for the city and were all keyed to one key, the lock and case itself might look like a stock or ordininary lock with it's usual 4 machine screw mounting and square case, but the actual case casting on these has a special thicker boss in a specific location near the center so that another component can be screwed down to that, the boss on the lock case is drilled and tapped for that machine screw. The installation can be seen in the 3rd picture taken before restoring it today.

[jeffmoss26]

If the 2 screws holding the tailpiece on can be removed, you should be able to pick/shim the cylinder open and use a plug follower to replace the top pins and springs.

[Michelin Man]

OP: I am sort of confused about what you are asking as it is a bit hard to follow. But from what I can understand, the cylinder that has it's springs and pins removed has no cap.

Therefore you need to remove whatever is holding the core in, either a cir clip or two screws on the back. This allows you to remove the core, you can pin up the plug/barrel. To load up the springs you will need a plug follower. Basically a solid round bar about the same diameter as the plug/barrel, and a pair of tweezers.

You basically hold the housing so the spring holes are facing up.

Then grab a driver pin with the tweezers and push down the spring with the pin while pushing the plug follower against the pin from the back. Which holds the pin in place, where you can let go of the tweezers and then push down on the driver pin while pushing he plug follower forward to cover the last chamber you just loaded.

I'll try and find a video showing this.

[Michelin Man]

Forgot the first step of putting the springs in first while the housing is facing up before you push in a driver pin.

Also don't just pull the plug/barrel out of a lock which is springs/pins in them without using a plug follower unless you like spending days finding where the pins/spring went.

Here's a video from one of my favorite youtubers. A bit long but you will see what I mean.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5_W1FF0c90

[wolff]

OP: I am sort of confused about what you are asking as it is a bit hard to follow. But from what I can understand, the cylinder that has it's springs and pins removed has no cap.
Therefore you need to remove whatever is holding the core in, either a cir clip or two screws on the back. This allows you to remove the core, you can pin up the plug/barrel. To load up the springs you will need a plug follower. Basically a solid round bar about the same diameter as the plug/barrel, and a pair of tweezers.

Hi, thanks for your response! running out the door literally, but a quick reply and I'll be back later, by "cap" you mean the removable piece of sheet metal that keeps the springs in place? these two cylinders do not have that, just what appears to be plugged holes on the bottom.

The two screws that hold the core in were easy to remove and the core slid right out after I determined it was missing the pins, in fact all the springs and pins were gone. Someone had obviously removed them for some reason long ago, maybe a fire dept maint guy couldn't get the key to work any more so he took the cylinder apart to "fix" it rather than messing with finding a replacement, either that or as you mentioned happens if you slide the core out- he took it apart because it wasn't working well and all the springs and pins shot out.

I have the key for the lock and would want it pinned to fit that specific key, it has a bow that is Maltese cross shaped FDNY stamped.

I'll try to get better photos but again today is dark and cloudy which doesnt help.

[wolff]

Ok here are some pictures, this is the Sargent lock which is for all intents and purposes identical to the other lock which has no name stamped on it that is missing all the springs and pins in it that I would like to restore.









I won't take the core out of this one since this one HAS the springs and pins in it, but hopefully these 4 pictures will clarify better

[Michelin Man]

Its basically like most pin tumbler locks out there. Most don't have caps (yes the thin folded metal that holds the springs in). Even if it did I would not remove it to repin a lock.

You have to use the method I described in my first post, or just watch the video about 8 minutes in. I suggest you watch the whole thing so you get the idea.

I think in your case it would be best to take it to a locksmith to have pinned up. Otherwise you will need to buy a pinning kit, tweezers and a plug follower (or make one). Unless you plan to do many locks its not worth it.

[mh]

Michelin Man already explained it: You can load springs and driver pins into the housing, compress the springs, and push the plug with the key pins inside into the housing. That's how many types of locks are assembled at the factory.

[wolff]

Forgot the first step of putting the springs in first while the housing is facing up before you push in a driver pin.

Also don't just pull the plug/barrel out of a lock which is springs/pins in them without using a plug follower unless you like spending days finding where the pins/spring went.

Here's a video from one of my favorite youtubers. A bit long but you will see what I mean.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5_W1FF0c90

That's a great video!
That lock he demonstrated is the same style as mine, the thing is I don't have any locksmith parts, pins, springs or lock tools of any kind, I'd have to at least buy a smaller version of that $85 repinning kit he showed, the one he said several rows of pins were useless.
I'm game to give it a shot and try repinning the lock myself now that I know what is available to do it.

Michelin Man already explained it: You can load springs and driver pins into the housing, compress the springs, and push the plug with the key pins inside into the housing. That's how many types of locks are assembled at the factory.

Thanks mh, that's part of the problem- I don't have any pins or springs but I could look into a smaller repinning kit such as the guy had in the video.
There's no nearby locksmith to me here in rural iowa, it would be at least a 45 minute drive each way, it would be more interesting to do this myself, besides, I remembered that I have several door locks in the house that each have different keys but the same brand, if I could repin some of those so one key opens them that would be another use for the kit.

[jeffmoss26]

Looks like a Yale paracentric keyway - I could pin this up with my Lab .003 kit. I would just need a working key that you want it keyed to.
Shoot me a PM if you are interested.

[wolff]

Looks like a Yale paracentric keyway - I could pin this up with my Lab .003 kit. I would just need a working key that you want it keyed to.
Shoot me a PM if you are interested.

Hi Jeff, you call it right since the Yale & Towne Maltese Cross Firebox Y2 Key fits this cylinder along with the other two fire boxes I have which use pin locks (others I have use a barrel and bit key)

The old copied 4 pin key with the round head bow I have that is in the pictures is slightly longer than the maltese cross key and it fits all 3 locks' keyways, and opens both of the working locks I have, but, the maltese cross key I have works in one lock but not the other, I think as was shown in that video of the 6 pin cylinder being used with a 5 pin key and the 6th pin being opened by the extra length of the key is what is happening.
Maybe what can happen is this pinless lock be repinned to work with with maltese cross key which would work with both keys by only having the first 4 pins installed, leaving the 5th one empty.

just trying to think ahead because I'm sure I'll wind up with more of these boxes that have these locks instead of the barrel and bit keys some of them do, and they all take the same key. They kept this simple with only two types of locks- the pinned type and the barrel and bit type, so the firemen and maintenance people only needed to carry 2 keys to open any box in the city.

I'll shoot you a pm.

[wolff]

I did a short video that should clear up a little of of what I said earlier:

https://youtu.be/Nk2QRfSgels

[Michelin Man]

Depending on the bitting (cuts) on the key you can add 'master pins' so they work with 2 keys.

I'm not sure what pinning 'standard' that lock uses but when you find out you can buy the LAB pinning kits for that 'standard' they are cheaper as they only have the pins used by that standard. They're about $55.

So if you have a worn out key that has a slightly deeper cut either the key will not work or it catches when you turn it.

This also means if you wanted to use it for other locks you're out of luck if it uses a different standard.

Otherwise you would get a universal pinning kit which pretty much has every pin you'll ever need. There's two versions the .003 and the .005 kits. The .003 allows you to pin up a lock with closer tolerances and has more pins, although it is a bit more expensive. The .005 kit has fewer pins but most of the time the tolerances are large enough with a .005 kit it will be ok.


Also for the BosnialBill video, he mainly focuses on 'security' making it harder to pick as he mainly picks challenge locks and normal locks to see how tough they are.

[jeffmoss26]

Very cool, thanks for posting the video! I can definitely help you out.

[wolff]

I'm not sure what pinning 'standard' that lock uses but when you find out you can buy the LAB pinning kits for that 'standard' they are cheaper as they only have the pins used by that standard. They're about $55.


Otherwise you would get a universal pinning kit which pretty much has every pin you'll ever need. There's two versions the .003 and the .005 kits. The .003 allows you to pin up a lock with closer tolerances and has more pins, although it is a bit more expensive. The .005 kit has fewer pins but most of the time the tolerances are large enough with a .005 kit it will be ok.

Also for the BosnialBill video, he mainly focuses on 'security' making it harder to pick as he mainly picks challenge locks and normal locks to see how tough they are.

Thanks Michelin Man, I was sort of looking at the LAB kits after watching Bill's videos and gathered from what he said in one of them that the .005 is usually close enough. I'm not in a rush to get this lock done, no urgency about it, but I found this forum and decided to start the topic and learn from the forum, right now I'm "torn" between just having someone like jeff repin the lock for me, and wanting to try one of those kits and repinning it myself.
$55 or whatever, is certainly cheap enough to play around with this and see how I do with it, the worst that can possibly happen is I can't get it to work no matter what (highly unlikely) and have to have someone do it for me, and I'd only be out the cost of the kit which I could probably resell on ebay and get half the money back anyway.

I've learned some new to me terms/names of parts just reading here and watching Bills videos so that's a plus!

Actually, I have several barrel & bit locks in my collection of fire alarm boxes that I need keys for, one that has an interesting feature inside that I've never seen, which some might find interesting to see a photo of at least, and a couple of decent sized 1950s era NYC public school padlocks that might be interesting to share photos of as well- maybe in a different thread for that.

The other locks I need the old barrel & bit keys for have been a real bear to find keys that fit, they are on Gamewell fire boxes and date back to 1895-1930, some of them are trap locks that lock the main key in and it can only be released by inserting a smaller key on the back of the lock, while others are very small keys used to open a small glass door. These are very simple locks, so the difficulty is finding the correct barrel & bit keys that fit the key openings, are long enough etc. Some of these used a hollow barrel key and others didn't.