Are Combination Padlocks Secure?

[Locks+Picks_Happy]

I recommend to people all the time to invest in a higher security padlock: Abloy, Medeco, etc. But today I was confronted by someone that did not want a lock with a key. They were very set on having a combination lock (their current one is a master and I know that is bad new by itself), and I just don't know much about combination locks.

Are their good combination padlocks? Every time I look for the info on combination lock security the internet just gives me ways to over come them.

Also if you think I should recommend something different than Abloy and Medeco let me know, I am really only basing that off the advice of others.

I thought that having a high security padlock means having security pins and a hardened steal body, am I wrong?

Is their something inherent to a combination lock that makes it less secure than a keyed lock? Maybe that is just my uneducated bias.

I know that a padlock is only as strong a the weakest link (rusty chain, flimsy locker, etc.), but what is better keyed or combination.

Let me know you thoughts.
Thanks

[kwoswalt99-]

Is it a Master dial padlock, or a four wheel one? There are some good ones, but most of the ones that you see commonly aren't any good. S&G makes a high quality combination padlock, but it isn't very beefy. Squire makes a four wheel padlock that seems to be of quality. http://www.squirelocks.co.uk/products/combination_products/padlocks.html

[kwoswalt99-]

Abus also appears to have some good options. http://www.abus.com/us/Commercial-Security/Padlocks/Combination

[Locks+Picks_Happy]

The master that he currently has is a dial.

Are the four wheel ones protected against decoding? I see people online placing something like a Peterson Knife in the gap between the wheels and the lock and that seems to defeat them.

Thank you for those links we defiantly check them out. If they work I might get one myself.

[kwoswalt99-]

Are the four wheel ones protected against decoding? I see people online placing something like a Peterson Knife in the gap between the wheels and the lock and that seems to defeat them.

I would think that since they are from reputable companies, they would have taken measures to prevent simple bypasses, but I don't know for sure.

[Robotnik]

Are the four wheel ones protected against decoding? I see people online placing something like a Peterson Knife in the gap between the wheels and the lock and that seems to defeat them.

I would think that since they are from reputable companies, they would have taken measures to prevent simple bypasses, but I don't know for sure.

You would think so, but...

Without going too deep into prohibited detail, no, Master 175/178 locks are not very secure. As far as better alternatives, it all depends on what you're trying to secure, your particular spot on the convenience-versus-security spectrum, risk tolerance, etc.

[Locks+Picks_Happy]

As far as better alternatives, it all depends on what you're trying to secure, your particular spot on the convenience-versus-security spectrum, risk tolerance, etc.[/quote]

That is kind of my point, or the question I was asking. On the spectrum, does a combination lock inherently sacrifice security for convenience? Does it do so to a degree that is problematic?

[kwoswalt99-]

I think that getting a quality one wouldn't sacrifice any security, versus a keyed one of the same size. There are padlocks that are more secure, but there's no such thing as an invincible padlock.

[Locks+Picks_Happy]

Thank you so much kwoswalt99, I am so happy you could sort that out for me.

This was just such a blind spot in my knowledge.

Love this forum, I just learn so much.

[nothumbs]

http://www.masterlock.com/business-use/product/2001

One step up on the more secure ladder. As other posters have said, it all depends on how much money you can spend, and how secure (which problems are you solving) you need to be.

[billdeserthills]

As far as better alternatives, it all depends on what you're trying to secure, your particular spot on the convenience-versus-security spectrum, risk tolerance, etc.

That is kind of my point, or the question I was asking. On the spectrum, does a combination lock inherently sacrifice security for convenience? Does it do so to a degree that is problematic?[/quote]


I really like the Sesamee 4 wheel brass combo padlocks. They are guaranteed for life (I believe) and we have sold lots of them out of my shop
One thing I don't like is some folks get lazy and only change one number when they lock the padlock, which is poor security

[nothumbs]

Locks are created from design goals. Some goals might be a price point, combination complexity, resistance to NDE attacks, and so on. For example the S&G 8088 had a specific set of design goals, none of which included significant resistance to DE attacks, but a specific NDE design goal of resistance for at least 15 minutes.

The answer to your question is, it depends. Craft a set of needs, then see if you can find an affordable combo lock that meets those needs. Inexpensive key locks can often fall to a NDE attack quickly while some inexpensive combo locks can resist for some time. Then again, the S&G 8088 is not what I would call a convenience tradeoff, darn inconvenient to open, too many dial turns.

[Robotnik]

As far as better alternatives, it all depends on what you're trying to secure, your particular spot on the convenience-versus-security spectrum, risk tolerance, etc.

That is kind of my point, or the question I was asking. On the spectrum, does a combination lock inherently sacrifice security for convenience? Does it do so to a degree that is problematic?

What I was getting at is even among combination locks, there's a wide range of variables that makes it hard to say in absolute terms whether you're sacrificing security relative to a keyed lock. There are combo locks - like the aforementioned S&G - that are hard to decode and/or brute force the combo, but don't offer much resistance (relatively speaking) to forcible removal. Also a bit more laborious to dial relative to something like a Master 1500, and much more expensive at around $50 versus the Master's $7 or so.

With the 4-wheel combo locks, the Master 175 is very easy to bypass, but I will absolutely use them for low-security applications because of their relatively low price and wide availability (at least around here). Bill's right, the Sesamee alternative to the 175 is a great little lock - hard to decode, more durable, not subject to the same simple bypass. Also about the same price, retail. Not as widely available around here though, so if I need to send someone out for a padlock in a pinch, that's a consideration.

A bit long- winded, but what I'm getting at is that different security needs require individual considerations. If you're securing a low-value target to which multiple people need access, a simple, cheap combination lock may be the best choice, as opposed to a keyed lock requiring you to distribute and track numerous keys (potential for loss or unauthorized copying by third parties). A higher-value target in a secluded area? Combo lock probably shouldn't be in the running.