Combination not always working, wheels move

[kpolhill]

Hello,

I have a standard 3 wheel combination safe. I do not know the make or model.
I know the combination but it takes forever to get the darned thing to open.

This last time I got it opened (took about 1.5 hours) I removed the door from the hinges and accessed the back where the 3 wheels are located.

What I found was that after the first number is set and you spin the dial to the next number the first wheel moves ever so slightly out of alignment.
So when all 3 numbers are set the safe does not open.

After repeated attempts I found that any of the 3 wheels might move out of alignment just enough to prevent the lock from opening.
In 58 attempts only one time did the door unlock.

How do I fix this. I was thinking some kind of lube but what do I know.
I am not a locksmith and I do not want to disassemble the mechanism if I do not have to.

Any suggestions?

[cledry]

No, never lubricate this sort of lock that will make it worse. Possibly someone has already lubricated it. I would clean it and look for burrs if this doesn't fix it the flys are bad and you should replace the lock. Safe locks are cheap but having to open a locked on isn't. I would replace it.

[Squelchtone]

photos will help, we cant be sure if you're dealing with a 1990 Sargent Greenleaf or a 1905 Mosler and there are differences in how those can become sloppy in their alignment.

take a photo of the dial, and then of the back cover and with the back cover removed so we can ID it and give you better advice, but cledry is right, and it echoes what an old locksmith once told me, that brass safe wheels are "self lubricating" and any time I've ever seen someone grease them up it causes problems down the road.

you may upload photos to an online service such as photobucket or tinypic.com or imgur.com and then copy/paste the links and show them here in your reply.

Squelchtone

[GWiens2001]

photos will help, we cant be sure if you're dealing with a 1990 Sargent Greenleaf or a 1905 Mosler...

Squelchtone

Or a 2015 Sentry

Gordon

[cledry]

Now that I re-read the OP it does sound like a direct wheel lock like a Sentry. I won't work on these "locks" so can only say what I saw in the Ledger back when it was still a small format magazine. They took a fine file and reduced the height of one of the pick ups on the offending wheel. But I hasten to add if you aren't careful you end up with a lock that doesn't work at all.

[kpolhill]

Thanks Jim.

[kpolhill]

Here is the link to a picture of the lock- http://i59.tinypic.com/abp768.jpg

Here is the link to the dial- http://i58.tinypic.com/2m5xhlc.jpg

The lock cover says "STEEL SAFE COMBINATION LOCKS".

EDIT - changed super-sized images to the links intended. GWiens2001

[Squelchtone]

Looks like the Chinese are getting good at making clones of the S&G 6730. Almost looks like the real thing.

It sounds like the number you are dialing or think is the combination really isnt or no longer is. either that or you have a stuck fly. so the next number you dial is off by 1.5 numbers give or take.

are you dialing the whole 4 turns to the left to 1st number, 3 turns to the right to the 2nd number, and 2 turns to the left to the 3rd number, then turn right until the bolt retracts and the dial stops at around 95 to 05 ?

what I would do is with the door open, dial it and look at when the gates in the wheels, those are the /___\ cut outs in each wheel, are directly under that long rectangular bar (called the "fence") and note which number is on the dial at 12 oclock when those internal parts align, then change direction, dial the 2nd number until it's /___\ aligns under that [] shaped bar and note the number on the dial, and then the 3rd wheel and note that number on the dial and then turn right until that bar drops into the 3 gates and the lock opens.

Now, scramble the lock and dial the 3 numbers you wrote down and see if it opens easily. How far off is this combination from what you feel the combination should be.

Let me know if this works for you,
Squelchtone

[cledry]

This does look like the S&G clone, I have seen them shipping standard in some not too inexpensive safes, such as the Hayman Magnavault and Dynavault models. In fact your safe looks like it might be one of these or another brand of the same. It appears you have a floating glass relocker in front of the lock. One of the issues we have had is that they use excessive red loctite when installing these locks, if that gets into the flys it can cause issues like you describe. I have had to open these safes because the loctite was all in the wheels.

[kpolhill]

Hi Squelchtone and cledry

I Have done what you suggested quite a few times. What I found is that for the most part the current combination is correct. Even if I over extend by a half click to get a better alignment on any of the numbers, when I switch directions the next dial causes the previous dial to move just enough for the bar not to fall into place.
Sometimes it happens to 1 wheel, sometime 2 and sometimes all 3. It is never consistent.

I used a gas duster on the lock to try and get rid of any debris in the working parts. But that did not seem to help.

I bought the safe thinking it was a brand new one. I think maybe after getting feedback in this forum that I was taken or at least mislead as to the condition of this safe.
I purchased It in 2009 and I just can not believe if it was new it would be problematic. And I am sure the dealer will do nothing about it.

What would you guys suggest I do with it?
Should I attempt to dismantle it and clean it myself or just replace the whole lock?
If I replace the lock what kind of cost am I looking at?

[femurat]

As cledry said, replacing the lock is cheap, opening a locked safe isn't.

I'd try to disassemble and clean it. If you fail or are not 200% sure it works flawlessly, just buy a new one (75$ I guess).

Cheers

[cledry]

Hi Squelchtone and cledry

I Have done what you suggested quite a few times. What I found is that for the most part the current combination is correct. Even if I over extend by a half click to get a better alignment on any of the numbers, when I switch directions the next dial causes the previous dial to move just enough for the bar not to fall into place.
Sometimes it happens to 1 wheel, sometime 2 and sometimes all 3. It is never consistent.

I used a gas duster on the lock to try and get rid of any debris in the working parts. But that did not seem to help.

I bought the safe thinking it was a brand new one. I think maybe after getting feedback in this forum that I was taken or at least mislead as to the condition of this safe.
I purchased It in 2009 and I just can not believe if it was new it would be problematic. And I am sure the dealer will do nothing about it.

What would you guys suggest I do with it?
Should I attempt to dismantle it and clean it myself or just replace the whole lock?
If I replace the lock what kind of cost am I looking at?

I have seen new safes that are defective so I wouldn't discount it. Personally I would slap a ESL10 on it.

[GWiens2001]

Know it has been a while on this thread, but just wanted to quote the words that a trainer of mine used to say...

"Just because it is new does not mean it is good. New just means it is not dirty yet."

Gordon

[blue60]

I would replace the lock, check out http://bigredsafelocks.com/Home-page/
I have 6 or 7 of these in use in different places and they have not let me down yet.

with a dial and a Group 2M lock I think it was around $100.

[CosmicClockmaker]

I have one also....
The key to open it consistently is to hold the outer ring stable: Centered and down. Then, the combination should work regularly.