Changed combination to Yale 0402 - now won't work

[frustrated]

I've inherited an old steel safe with a Yale 0402/0C5M combination lock - 4" between handle and dial - 100 number dial - 3 tumblers. I've even got the original "user's manual" on how to change the combination. The safe came with the original preset combination and everything worked. I tried changing the combination - i.e. removing tumblers and changing the position of the inner disks. Now the lock bolt will not drop allowing the door bolt to move. I tired putting the original default combination back in that the safe came with and it still doesn't work What am I doing wrong?

[Squelchtone]

I've inherited an old steel safe with a Yale 0402/0C5M combination lock - 4" between handle and dial - 100 number dial - 3 tumblers. I've even got the original "user's manual" on how to change the combination. The safe came with the original preset combination and everything worked. I tried changing the combination - i.e. removing tumblers and changing the position of the inner disks. Now the lock bolt will not drop allowing the door bolt to move. I tired putting the original default combination back in that the safe came with and it still doesn't work What am I doing wrong?

photos would help us a lot, you can upload them to http://imgur.com or to http://tinypic.com

I'm assuming the door is still open and you can dial the dial and look inside the door and see things turning or is the combination wheel pack attached to the back cover of the lock?

One thing for sure is that the wheels, 1,2 and 3 have to go back onto the stump in the same order. are these the wheels where you had to pop them off the central 'gear' ?

When you dial the combination, and it doesn't drop in, can you remove the cover plate and look at the 3 wheels, is just one of them off kilter and some of the other gates are aligned?

some of these old locks have relockers built in, did you trip one possibly that is now making it so no matter what you dial, the bolt work will never move?

sorry for all the questions but this could be one of a bunch of causes.

Squelchtone

[kwoswalt99-]

I like the username.

[frustrated]

The door is open on the safe, but I cannot see any of the workings as the tumblers are attached to the back cover. The tumblers are in the correct order - I was very careful in keeping track of them when I removed them. And they are stamped with numbers - 1,2 or 3 - 1 being closest to the dial. There is a gear almost the size of the tumbler itself which the 3 tumblers(attached to the back cover) will sit on top of when the back cover is reinstalled. Typically, tumbler 1(closest to the dial) is the only one not in line. Before I messed with it, the mechanism worked quite intuitively, counter to the instructions - that is all you needed to do is R(1st #), L(2nd #) and turn handle - you didn't have to jiggle the dial or search for that "sweet" spot.

[Squelchtone]

The door is open on the safe, but I cannot see any of the workings as the tumblers are attached to the back cover. The tumblers are in the correct order - I was very careful in keeping track of them when I removed them. And they are stamped with numbers - 1,2 or 3 - 1 being closest to the dial. There is a gear almost the size of the tumbler itself which the 3 tumblers(attached to the back cover) will sit on top of when the back cover is reinstalled. Typically, tumbler 1(closest to the dial) is the only one not in line. Before I messed with it, the mechanism worked quite intuitively, counter to the instructions - that is all you needed to do is R(1st #), L(2nd #) and turn handle - you didn't have to jiggle the dial or search for that "sweet" spot.

It's common with older safes that there will be some play or slop from what you read on the dial to what the wheels are set to. I had a customer who wanted a particular combination on their Mosler and being completely new to hand change wheels I set it and dialed and was sad when it did not open. (the door was still unlocked at that point) I took it apart and saw that the wheel gates were close but not quite, so I had to actually set them +/- 2 to 5 numbers in order for the fence to drop into the gates when the combination was dialed. If the combination is 50-20-70 you may very well have to set the 1st wheel to 47 or 53 or set the last wheel to 68 or 73 and play with it until it works as expected. There is also a +/- on some safes when you dial them R L R or L R L due to how the fly's work which are the little moving things in the center of each wheel that move +/- 20 degrees.

Is it possible that when you set the combination back to the "original" combination, you pressed the wheels together back to the exact numbers of the combination, but maybe didnt notice when popping the wheels apart that they were not actually set to the exact original combination you dialed in?

hope this helps,
Squelchtone

[frustrated]

Yeah, I didn't notice exactly where those inner disks were set on the original combination. But when I say tumbler #1 is not aligned, we're talking like almost 180 degrees off. I even tried a 1 number combination to no avail.

[zeke79]

Some pics of the lock disassembled would help us help you. To be honest it sounds like something wasn't reassembled correctly or combination wasn't set quite right.

If you take pics please take them of both sides of the wheels and any other parts.

[Squelchtone]

Yeah, I didn't notice exactly where those inner disks were set on the original combination. But when I say tumbler #1 is not aligned, we're talking like almost 180 degrees off. I even tried a 1 number combination to no avail.

I have a Yale in front of me, and I just took the wheels apart off the back cover.

wheel stamped 3 on the back of it came off first and it's gate is between 40 and 60 on the wheel, and combination set to 70

wheel stamped 2 on the back of it came off next and it's gate is between 10 and 90 on the wheel, and combination set to 20

wheel stamped 1 on the back of it came off last and it's gate is between 40 and 60 on the wheel. and combination set to 40

This would make the actual combination 40-20-70

I got it open by dialing

Right 3 times past 40 and stopping on 40 the 4th time around
Left 2 times past 20 and stopping on 20 the 3rd time around
Right 1 time past 70 and stopping on 70 the 2nd time around
Left to 0 where the bolt starts to drop in and then the dial stops dead at 10

mine is finicky as well, I noticed dialing 39-21-70 opened it a lot more often than dialing 40-20-70. I think you'll just have to make small adjustments until it opens to the desired combination.

Here's a pic of my wheels layed out in order:
http://i.imgur.com/RTHC0ty.jpg

I've had the 180 out of whack thing happen to me before and I don't remember if I had something assembled backwards or if I wasn't dialing the correct number of revolutions in each order while dialing the combination.

hope you can compare yours against mine and see what's out of whack,

Squelchtone

[GWiens2001]

And if it is out of whack, you can get a small tub from MBA. Then you will have plenty of whack, and never be out of it again.

Most of these old hand change Yales (in fact, all that I have worked with) have been off at least a bit between what the wheel indicates and what the dial reads.

Gordon

[Squelchtone]

And if it is out of whack, you can get a small tub from MBA. Then you will have plenty of whack, and never be out of it again.

Most of these old hand change Yales (in fact, all that I have worked with) have been off at least a bit between what the wheel indicates and what the dial reads.

Gordon

very funny GW.. I noticed my wheels are also very loose on the stump/post (that's what I'm gonna call it) and it's easy to dial too fast and have the wheels drift further than you meant to have them rotate.

they say not to grease brass safe wheels, but it would almost work better with some grease to slow the wheels down from dragging/drifting.

I wonder where the change from dial to wheel gets introduced? stuck or dirty flys? worn pins on driver and the wheels? I read about "dial ring balancing" in a Dave McOmie book, it talks about how much of a pain in the a** it is to get this to work well.

Squelchtone

[Raymond]

This next process will be easier if all wheels are set to the same number, for example 50. Put it back together and put the wheel pack back on the safe. Dial the combo exactly as it should be dialed, turning all wheels and stopping at 50, the one designated number. For this you do not have to do the left-right-left. Without moving the dial, remove the wheel pack taking great care not to move any wheels. Look at the gates and see if they are perfectly lined up or if one or more are off slightly. If off, you will have to compensate for that difference on that wheel when dialing. To compensate you will have to dial the left-right-left turns. Trial and error will help you determine the final correct combo. For example, you might have to dial 50-48-50 to get the gates lined up exactly. Now you would know that the second wheel must be set 2 numbers off to get it to open on the desired 50. Play with it to see which direction to make the offset, whether plus or minus.

After getting it to open reliably you can set the wheels 'off' the required number to compensate to get it to open on exactly the combo you want.

[frustrated]

My lock looks exactly as in the pics Squelchtone posted. Sounds like I should have noticed where the inner disks were set at before snapping them out. Looks like it's try and error from here. Thanks for all your help.

[frustrated]

Got it! You do need to turn the dial left somewhat as a final step in order for the lock dog to drop in - that's the way this lock is. It so happens that that happens at about 9 on the dial on my safe, which is why I was able to open the safe with the default combination it came with of R50, L9 without having to jiggle the dial any. Setting the combination I wanted was truly trail and error. To be sure, I set the combination to R12, L23, R84 on the dial. What wound up set on the inner disks was 77 (tumbler 1), 13 (tumbler 2), 24 (tumbler 3). Problem solved!

[Squelchtone]

Got it! You do need to turn the dial left somewhat as a final step in order for the lock dog to drop in - that's the way this lock is. It so happens that that happens at about 9 on the dial on my safe, which is why I was able to open the safe with the default combination it came with of R50, L9 without having to jiggle the dial any. Setting the combination I wanted was truly trail and error. To be sure, I set the combination to R12, L23, R84 on the dial. What wound up set on the inner disks was 77 (tumbler 1), 13 (tumbler 2), 24 (tumbler 3). Problem solved!

um, that seems really off, like way more than it should be. In the safe door, is your lock mounted with the deadbolt facing down, up, left or right? That could be the reason for the huge offset on each wheel.

it seems wheel 1 and 3 are 180 degrees out of whack, and wheel 2 is off by the movement of the movable fly.

I think you also just noticed the last step where after you dial x-y-z you have to reverse direction one last time and dial Left until the fence drops into all the aligned gates and retracts the bolt (what I wrote: "Left to 0 where the bolt starts to drop in and then the dial stops dead at 10")

I still recall having the same issue you are where the wheels were 180 degrees out of synch to what I expected, I just don't remember what caused it.

Glad it is sorted out at least to your liking and the combination works the way you want it to, that's all that matters in the end.

It was fun to follow your progress, hope you enjoying learning a little about antique safe locks, and thanks for visiting our forum.

Squelchtone

[Raymond]

Hey Squelchtone,

If that is a shim washer on the bottom of the "wheel post", you can take it off, roll it to create a big hump, and put it back on. The curve will push all wheels more tightly together and reduce the tendency to float when spinning the dial too fast. If it is not a shim washer you need to add one. And yes, add some light grease but make sure it stays completely away from the flies.