What are your thoughts on modern anti-snap cylinders?

[Hedgehog]

There's been loads of publicity about snapping euro cylinders in the UK. What are your thoughts about the new TS007 vs. Sold Secure Diamond standards? Or should the cylinder's brand be more important? I'd be interested in views about the anti-snap cylinders that are on the market now.

Before everyone says Protec2, that's a mega investment My house has a uPVC patio door and a pair of uPVC French doors. I think Protect2 would be overkill for normal uPVC doors! Plus I couldn't afford it. So how about:

Avocet ABS: The default choice of anti-snap, but I've handled one and it ground clunkily. Plus the 30/30 size isn't kitemarked, because it hasn't enough differs. I think the ABS cylinder could be a Thirard Federal and made in Taiwan, but it has passed the MLA's Diamond test.

Evva EPS with anti-snap option: The anti-snap system looks a bit like Avocet's system. I'm guessing that Evva cylinders would be better quality as they're made in Austria, but these cylinders haven't passed the Diamond test.

Mul-T-Lock XP: First cylinder to pass the Diamond test, but no longer claiming to be Diamond standard What happened? Also, how does Mul-T-Lock quality compare to other brands?

Yale Platinum: Any good? How does Yale quality compare to other brands?

Kaba pExtra Guard: The cylinder has a sacrificial break slot very close to the cam, which is said to ensure the core of the lock is retained and deadlocked in the event of being snapped. How does this work?

[Hedgehog]

Also, Squire's now got a TriStar cylinder with a locking cam too. It looks a bit like the pExtra Guard in pictures. Do you think they use the same system? Has Squire found a way round Avocet's patent re: locking the cam?

There are now so many anti-snap cylinders that it's a bit baffling Most of them claim to have passed some sort of test. If a cylinder is TS007 3-star, is there any difference between brands? Are some better quality, more reliable or higher security than others? Do you know of 3-star cylinders that have been breached?

If you couldn't afford a Protec, which cylinder would you fit to the uPVC door of your house?

Or should I fit press bolts or sash jammers and not worry about the cylinder?

[cj101]

Destructive entry techniques are not discussed with much detail in this forum. This forum is about lockpicking.

But to help you a bit:

Of course, you don't need a Protec2 lock. There are many secure locks on the market. Pickable locks may not be secure against brute force and vice versa. Some locks can withstand heavy phyiscal attacks but can be picked open quite easily.


The best protection for your cylinder against snapping, drilling and other forced entry methods is to use a high quality and suitable safety shield with core drawing protection. This will protect your cylinder the best way against the known brute force methods.

Furthermore, have a look at the certificates of your cylinders. If insurance companies accept these certificates and tests, you might assume that the cylinders are reasonable secure against the mentioned attacks.

In the UK, there are the BRE LPS standards for cylinder locks, in Germany and Austria there is the VdS approvement. In the United states, there is the UL listing. These standards are recognized by insurance companies. Please check the status of your TS007 or Sold Secure Diamond certificate in this view.

Last of all: If your door is to weak, to withstand brute force, a cylinder lock won't help you much anyway.


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[ARF-GEF]

Yale is not too good, I don't know Avocet but looks good.
I know for sure that Evva and Kaba are great locks and the MultTlock is good as well.

There are 3 kinds of break secure solutions:

Either you weaken the lock at a point, so you ensure even if they break it the lock breaks at an optimal point (from the security viewpoint, not the robber viewpoint that is).
Then depending on manufacturer either you can open the rest with your old key or you need a lockie to get the lock out.
These are the locks which have a cut in them. (Squire tristar, Mutlt lock Break Secure XP, Yale, the kaba you mentioned for example)


The other, more pricey but better option is when they have some kind of mechanism to keep the 2 parts together even if they break. This is what Mottura does with a system resembling a strong paperclip in the middle.

The third, best, option is when you have a very strong specially made steel "bridge" going through the lock or at least the critical middle part, making the lock so strong that it's pretty much impossible to break. Obviously this is is more safe than the others and with this kind of lock you can keep using the lock even after an attempted attack, while you will have to change the others.
Naturally this means more expensive materials and more expensive manufacturing process so the lock are also pricier.
Evva uses this system on all of their break secure locks and so does MulTlock on their top of the range models.

The best is having a good safety shield as mentioned above, but those can be expensive and may require additional drilling on the door or cahnign the knob to have the space.

[Poolsharks1]

Ive got bs cisa astals on my uvpc doors and cant fault them. Metal bar runs the full lenght of the euro so there's definitely no snapping them. All the other features are as good as the rest in my opinion and they are half the price of the avocets. Just paying for the name in my opinion #locksnobbery lol

[Hedgehog]

Firstly, many thanks for all the advice and tolerating questions that aren't about picking. I thought I'd ask on here, as there must be locksmiths on this forum who have to defeat these cylinders, so know which they'd choose for their own houses.

I was going to go with a Cisa Astral S, but this YouTube video shows an Astral S being snapped in no time.

Yale is not too good, I don't know Avocet but looks good.
I know for sure that Evva and Kaba are great locks and the MultTlock is good as well.

Many thanks. I was looking for informed opinions like this. I'll check out Evva, Kaba and MulTLock. I'll also avoid Yale now!

There are 3 kinds of break secure solutions ...

Looking at the cylinders that have passed the TS007 test, many (all?) of them seem to incorporate multiple break secure solutions, e.g. a sacrificial cut and the strong "bridge" you mentioned. From what I can gather, cylinders with either a sacrificial cut or a "bridge" didn't pass the anti-snap tests. It seems a cylinder might need several layers of anti-snap defences to survive a 3-minute long attack test I never realised how interesting this lock stuff was!

I've now had a look for a good safety shield, but couldn't find any that fitted my uPVC doors

[femurat]

I prefer to feel safe...so could you recommend such []locksmiths london[]? thay have good locks?

[LocksportSouth]

I have an Avocet ABS in use on a property and feel safe with it - the cylinder feels sturdy to me and operated smoothly in the lock - in my copy at least. I also have the thumbturn version, which has an interesting feature where, when you unlock the door you need to push the thumb turn dial in and then let it pop out - basically it locks down the cam so even if burglars get past the anti-snap, the cam can't be turned with a screwdriver from the outside. It's BS 3-star rated and Diamond rated on that other scale, anti-snap and uses magnetic pics as well as some kind of pin-in-pin system. Not too many of picking videos on YouTube either .

I'm currently looking for a set of Euro and Oval locks for another property (family) with different requirements, but the Cisa Astral S is also a good cheap option. I've seen them being picked quite quickly on Youtube and you have that video of the snapping too, but it's always a case of weighing price vs security. Take a look at my thread (currently at the top of the forum) for a few other options especially in the UK - I did a quick summary of the pros and cons of each (from my perspective) in my latest post

I'd also say that it's about the complete package - the security of the handle (the BS standard gives locks and handles stars out of 3, and you can have a lower level lock as long as the handle is higher, for example a 2 star handle with a 1 star lock, as long as it all adds up to three... At least, I think that's how it works!) as well as the hinges, door and windows around of course all have an impact too. A burglar will always look for the weakest spot and attack that. If everything seems "secure enough", hopefully they'll move on to a less-well-secure neighbour (sounds a bit mean, but...)

[ARF-GEF]

Haven't broken an Astral S in half yet
Didn't really do muc hdestructive entry, a very few when I worked at a locksmith. I love locks so I prefer to keep them intact.
But the video speaks for itself IMO.

What I meant with yale is not that it's mega crappy it's just not a really highly secure lock. Yale makes good quality lock comapred to chinese stuff, it's just not at the top of the range.

Unfortunately I'm not too familiar with the exact methods and requirements of the TS007 test.

If you install the lock properly (so it's not hanging out from the level of the door too much) then you should be okay with the locks mentioned before. There is always more naturally.
If you want to go overboard I can recommend KABA, the ones they make fully from steel. I know where there are vid of people picking it (possible but definitely very hard if not cheating) and people breaking it, but I tried breaking the bridge in them and they are very tough. Those locks and DOM Diamant (diamond) and Abloy Rpotec2 are probably the ones most resistant to physical attacks.

As I mentioned Evva and Kaba make good locks they should serve you well, unless you have some unique very high security place. (Both have locks for that range as well Evva 3ks+, Evva MCS and Kaba Star to mention a few, but those are not really neccessary for anything below jewellry shops and so on.)
I would feel adequately safe with the kaba or the Evva or the MulTlock. (as far as the lock goes that is)

Nonetheless if someone really wants to go in they will break the walls open, so they can go in pretty much anywhere (hatton garden).

Not too many of picking videos on YouTube either .

That doesn't mean as much as you think. It could men the lcok si new, or that it's not so interesting so not many pickers are bent on it. Many videos are ridiculous, they either practiced on the exact same lock for weeks now knowing that particular piece and keying it inside out or cheating by leaving pins out of the lock. Then there are the very few insanely good pickers but those won't be picking your door


Avocet ABS is not the magic it seems. It's a good lock, but the magnet can be defeated by any small magnet inserted in the lock (it only needs to pull or push).
The dual pins are not as hard as they seem, at least without serrations. You pick the big outer ones one by one, then the inner ones are almost popping to their place by themselves.
To me it takes a lot of time but I know people who can do it much better and reasonably fast.

'd also say that it's about the complete package - the security of the handle (the BS standard gives locks and handles stars out of 3, and you can have a lower level lock as long as the handle is higher, for example a 2 star handle with a 1 star lock, as long as it all adds up to three... At least, I think that's how it works!) as well as the hinges, door and windows around of course all have an impact too. A burglar will always look for the weakest spot and attack that. If everything seems "secure enough", hopefully they'll move on to a less-well-secure neighbour (sounds a bit mean, but...)

I agree.

basically it locks down the cam

Few lock manage to secure the cam when they are broken in half. Simply because when broken in half the cam is not really kept in place. You can fish out the whole cam and put in a thingy which simulates a cam.
Don't want to go into too much details, this is about locks not a robbery course
never tried it with that model but I have some reservations

I never realised how interesting this lock stuff was!

Lock stuff is fun, fun fun There are so many and so many unique interesting solutions. Just look around the forum, check out the "European locks" parts or the "Locks" part which is more about US locks.
You are sure to find a ton of great information here

EDIT: Just realsied you ahve UPVC door. I heard those aren't too good (sturdy). No sense of going over the the locks I already recommended. If you have a good lock, then have a look at teh door as well

[LocksportSouth]

Not too many of picking videos on YouTube either .

That doesn't mean as much as you think. It could men the lcok si new, or that it's not so interesting so not many pickers are bent on it. Many videos are ridiculous, they either practiced on the exact same lock for weeks now knowing that particular piece and keying it inside out or cheating by leaving pins out of the lock. Then there are the very few insanely good pickers but those won't be picking your door

Agreed, I've seen some videos that are clearly faked or, as you say, practised on for far longer than any thief would want to bother with unless they're attacking a bank vault. BosnianBill did a good episode of lockpicking fakeries (it's called "(190) Lockpicking Fakery: Don't Let Tricksters Steal Your Confidence!!"). The Avocet ABS has been out for a long time though so not new, and it certainly has an interesting design worth attacking - one picking video I saw, the guy seemed to have a special tension wrench designed to defeat the magnet so it's not as simple as a regular lock - from a thief's perspective. Of course, if everyone starts buying them then the specialist picking tools will end up in the burglar's (who carries picks - AFAIK not that common) toolkit.

Avocet ABS is not the magic it seems. It's a good lock, but the magnet can be defeated by any small magnet inserted in the lock (it only needs to pull or push).

I figured as much - I wonder how the EVVA MCS is different. It claims some number of positions per magnet "pin" (I think something like 8 or 16 positions per one) - are they claiming their magnets have 8 or 16 or whatever different polarities? Cos... I don't think magnets work that way. OTOH I guess they could mean X number of rotational positions - say, the magnet in the cylinder rotating to 0°, 45°, 90° etc. If they had done something similar with the ABS it would be way more secure - of course, that design is probably copyrighted by EVVA. I guess the ideal (in terms of security, not cost!!) cylinder would have (regular) security pins, dimples, pin-in-pin, laser tracks, rotating magnets, split core and loads of other tricks all in one key .

The dual pins are not as hard as they seem, at least without serrations. You pick the big outer ones one by one, then the inner ones are almost popping to their place by themselves.
To me it takes a lot of time but I know people who can do it much better and reasonably fast.

I wonder how many thieves are likely to know that though, or have the skills to execute on that. Especially if they know the ABS' reputation and can tell what cylinder it is just by looking. That said, when I get hold of a set of dimple picks and if I can find one of those custom magnet tension wrenches I can't wait to put the ABS up on a vice and give it a shot, hah!

basically it locks down the cam

Few lock manage to secure the cam when they are broken in half. Simply because when broken in half the cam is not really kept in place. You can fish out the whole cam and put in a thingy which simulates a cam.
Don't want to go into too much details, this is about locks not a robbery course
never tried it with that model but I have some reservations

That seems to be the main weak point of the whole Euro system. I guess the idea is that with a sacrificial piece, the lock snaps off before the cam rendering it impossible to get to the cam but I wonder if it would be that hard to use a screwdriver and hammer to snap the rest of the cylinder off up to the cam. Ofc once you're down to the cam there's not much stopping that from being turned or snapped off - maybe if they made it out of a harder material, bolted it more firmly to the inside section and used a system like the ABS to block it from turning when the thumbturn is in the locked position on the inside. Or just make the whole cylinder out of something more snap proof. Maybe like Tungsten carbide or something. But I guess this isn't an "invent a lock" post, haha!

EDIT: Just realsied you ahve UPVC door. I heard those aren't too good (sturdy). No sense of going over the the locks I already recommended. If you have a good lock, then have a look at teh door as well

We have a UPVC door and I really don't feel that safe with it in terms of violent attack resistance, just feels flimsy, not to mention you're really locked in (pardon the pun) to using one Euro cylinder whereas wooden doors can be fitted with as many and as different types of locks as you want. The multipoint locking system is supposed to make it more secure, I guess like a vault door but the metal brackets that the door anchors into (in the frame) are only held into a plastic frame and only with a couple of screws each.

Ideally everyone would have a reinforced, armoured metal door I guess . That's what I'd use if I had the choice. Mata doors in the UK are reasonably priced and they even offer a blast-proof one (!!!) for even the more paranoid (and gov't buildings, I assume)

[kwoswalt99-]

Or just make the whole cylinder out of something more snap proof. Maybe like Tungsten carbide or something.

WC would be less snap proof. It's very hard and also brittle, and not to mention expensive.

[LocksportSouth]

Or just make the whole cylinder out of something more snap proof. Maybe like Tungsten carbide or something.

WC would be less snap proof. It's very hard and also brittle, and not to mention expensive.

My bad - It's what I think of in terms of "a very hard / heat resistant substance". I'm not a materials scientist
I'm sure there are better options than regular ol' steel and brass, though - even if the expense is much higher.

[kwoswalt99-]

I'm thinking titanium would be good, because of it's high tensile strength. And it's cheap too.

[budget1977]

any anti snap cylinder is better than just a standard cylinder. All cylinder should be compulsory antisnap