The "Bowley Lock": Canada's newest and coolest lock!

[Squelchtone]

Even if the a key opens it or any combination of actual or actual -1 bitting height -0.006" there would still be at at least 1025 keys to try and i don't think you would get that much play in a given location for a very long time.

It would be nice to have larger steps.

Thanks for you comment.

Hi,
I'm not sure if it was mentioned and I just missed it in the 3 pages of replies, and try out keys aside, what number of viable key differs does this design have, and are the pin stacks tall enough to also allow for master wafers so that a master key and change key would both operate the lock? If it cannot be master wafered, then you may be limited to the residential market.

Also, does this qualify as a curtain lock or do you call the tube with open bottom slot in your design a curtain? (I think reading mh's post tells me it is)

Thanks
Squelchtone

[kwoswalt99-]

If it cannot be master wafered, then you may be limited to the residential market.

That's part of my "what is your vision for the company" question.

[Bowley Lock Company]

Well, I played around with the dimensions last night and can say this. I can buy a bit more key bitting depth and move my pin spacing to 0.009" instead of 0.006" based on the concerns raised here. That will take me down to 8 pins depths at 5 locations or about 32000 keys.Not counting long pinning and short drilling which will lower that if incorperated. Now my cylinder is about 0.875" vs a standard lock which is 0.5". If you do the math i am about 1.6 time flatter. Meaning the height difference between the top of the cylinder to the edge of the drilled pin hole (my lock 0.0039" normal lock about 0.0063". What this means is a smaller lock cylinder needs a bigger clearance to accommodate a flat pin turning through a curved sheer plane. If that thought has any merit than 0.015"/1.6=0.009" so I think a 0.009" pin difference in my lock with tighter clearance may function the same as a standard lock.

As to the question of master keying. It certainly can theoretically. However I have done zero investigation into this to figure out the combinations available for that or how that would be limited.

And my vision would be to certainly offer commercial shortly after our residential products.

[FarmerFreak]

I don't know if this has been implemented, but here are some suggestions.

Properly balance the pin stacks. Using a different size driver pin for each size key pin. Then use a few different strength springs randomly in the lock. This isn't new, just not commonly done.

That should, hopefully, mess up any foil impressioning or any other self impressioning attacks.

[Bowley Lock Company]

FarmerFreak,
I think I understand that different springs would provide differing force rates and make it difficult to have a consistent foil output.

However could you to clarify the driver pin recommendation. Is the purpose so that all the bottoms+drivers when measured together are all different heights so that they are too at different starting spring forces or is the purpose that they are all the same height?

Is the purpose to just have a bunch of different situations in each hole because i will certainly make that happen. I'm confused because you used the word balance!

Regards.

[kwoswalt99-]

He means all keypin+driver pin lengths are equal.

[cj101]

So now, the pin total height variation would be 0.009*7"=1.6mm.
So master keying should be indeed possible, as a master pin disc starting with already 0.6 might work reliable if there is no beveling needed. Usually the smallest master pin has a height between 0.7 - 0.8mm.
There must be always a stiff spring to rule out a master pin to stand up in the chamber as this would block out your lock.

Maybe you can consider positional master keying like it is done in Keso/Kaba locks. This enables the important master lock system with one or more central doors for all tenants and one individual door for each tenant without using master pins. Hence, the security of each lock is not lessened by master pins.

Also consider a dimpled key, as less material is removed from the key, increasing the tensile stress regions in the edges of your key, increasing the overall key stiffness/stability.

[Bowley Lock Company]

Cj101,
I totally agree with the dimple keys. They would be substantially stronger.My original rapid prototyped keys were in fact dimple cut. I may do that for the commercial keys. However i was cutting these keys on my home mill which is hilariously small and embarrassing. I did buy some 45º drill mills to cut some dimple keys but with out a good jig at the time i was having trouble placing the holes with out the tool walking around a bit. I started having the bitting cut during laser cutting process and it turned out really nice so I've stayed with it for the prototypes. But now i have a great jig so i could get back on that but all i have now is a bunch of keys with the bidding already cut. If my kick starter starts looking like it has any hope of succeeding i will start working on dimple cutting again.

[mh]

If my kick starter starts looking like it has any hope of succeeding

I have to say that your Kickstarter campaign goals do look a little bit more ambitious to me than those of other lock-related campaigns - 500k$ in a relatively short time span. Also, many other campaigns have lots of reviews on a number of platforms like Engadget already at the start.
And there's often a lot of buzz on the Kickstarter site with lots of questions and answers and updates from the project creators, which also might draw further interest. (Don't get me wrong: LP101 is the best place to discuss technical lock details, but non-lock-enthusiast buyers will judge the campaign solely from what they see on Kickstarter and from reviews on Engadget and so on.)

I would think that there are many offers out there regarding Kickstarter campaign consulting before you start - and most likely even more in you spam folder now that you started - when this campaign is finished, it would be great if you could share some insights which advices were helpful and which were not.

Cheers
mh

[Bowley Lock Company]

mh,
I'll say this first, we knew Kickstarter was a long shot. We where hopeful but realistic. Obviously it is the perfect way to kick start a company as no equity is sacrificed.

We did a lot of research and talked to a bunch of people who have done a Kickstarter before we launched and the advise varied greatly. The gizmags and engadgets state that hiring a PR firm will not help you get on there site and that sending a media kit will be enough. They will decide the merit of the product and write about it if they like it. A fellow i work with did a Kickstarter on his gadget and his mistake was getting media interest to early. They ended up running his story weeks before he was launched and the buzz was gone by the time he got there. He also said, if one picks it up all the others will follow with in days, as was the case for him and they wont even contact you in most cases. He said a bunch of media outlets just went to his website and took the media content and wrote the story with out contacting him. So our strategy was to launch and then hit the media in hopes of going viral but it does not seem to be working as of yet. We sort of knew it was a slim chance as Kickstarter is much better geared towards electronics and cat music.

While your working within Kickstarter they bombard you with "helpful" suggestions, the main one they hammered home was that campaigns over 30 days fail at much greater rates than those less than 30 days because buyers don't feel any pressure to buy and once they have time to think they usually pass. So we did 35 days because i am a rebel but now i wish we did 60. The other thing was we didn't want to go through Christmas and into January because people can pull their purchase and you may begin to lose money as the broke month of January sets in.

I can give one piece of advice that we have learned and that is to get professional help making your video commercial.It is so hard which we didn't fully appreciate. We shot 5 different commercials which got slightly better each time. Our first one was like a talk show with us at a board room table. It was embarrassing to edit. It didnt take long to realize that we needed a new idea. But our current commercial is still very amateur and i don't think really makes people need to buy the product in the way a professional marketing firm could have done it. Kickstarter allows major corporations to launch products now so you are competing with million dollar budgets. For example Revols teamed with Onkyo is a massive Japanese speaker manufacturer and they have launched a new head phone one Kickstarter. They did a massive ad campaign to align with the Kickstarter and they were at $600,000 usd in a matter of days and they are now at around $750k.

Also as your campaign loses traction they move you down the list so you are less likely to be seen. Products that are doing good get promoted and then become a "staff pick". I suppose if i owned Kickstarter I would do the same thing as they earn 5% of sales and you obviously want to maximize products that are doing well and not block them with projects doomed to fail.

The $500k number was a number in which a couple of us could go at this full time. if we set the mark at $50k we could be in a bad situation where we owe a lot of locks to people and don't have the security to leave our careers to do so.

Live and Learn as always.

Ryan

[mitch.capper]

I like your lock:) I think words like tamper proof and high security should be used with some restraint (I wouldn't call anything tamperproof:)). The lock has some nice features, I think it may be missing a few things that would keep it short of a high security lock but with the price point I think its better targeted as a high end medium security lock (scorpion style etc). It would be good to see the full deadbolt specs for the mechanism and such as there is a lot of mechanics in a quality deadbolt (so in part you have two hard tasks in one, a new cylinder and a new deadbolt).

It could certainly be masterkeyed, key space issues could be an issue and bumping looks likely with a proper too, but I am not sure if the target market needs the utmost in security from such a product. With so many steel components i would also be curious what wear would be (obviously most keys end up being nickel silver not steel).

Those suggesting a wire tool I think are certainly shooting for beyond the scope of what a lock like this should protect against, but it is interesting to discuss options. Security is always a compromise so keeping in mind what the products true target probably is and then what common attacks it would need to withstand.

The usability of the deadbolt may be tough for some users, many complain about abloys 90 degree rotation prior to opening, and this is a bit harder than that. Have you considered trying to figure out a way to do a stop so the key cannot rotate beyond the 180 without being fully inserted? You could require initial rotation always in a certain direction which is easy to implement but that would probably confuse users(rotate clockwise on insertion push in and then the direction you want).

No matter the point is it is great to see innovators in the mechanical lock field from someone other than the big guys. Certainly a project worth backing:)

Running a KS is definitely very difficult after several friends have done so it amounts to a whole job on its own. Some random press coverage could turn things around, good luck!

~mitch

[Bowley Lock Company]

Mitch,
Thanks for your post.

Wear is an interesting question and one i am not 100% confident on. Nickle silver is used because its lubricious and reduced wear so a stainless key that's as hard as this could be problematic long term. However what this lock does have going for it in the wear department is as follows. The key only travels a small distance when in contact with the pins. A normal key is forcing the pins up and down during the entire insertion of the key. So from a drag distance per use perspective this lock is much better in that sense (10x better) but worse in a material on material sense so i'm not sure which will have a greater effect. The idler and cylinder are brass so i don't expect any disadvantage in wear on those components rotating with respect to one another. The demo locks we have been carrying around with us get operated a lot and i have taken them apart and seen no wear but that isn't exactly scientific or representative of an accurate time installed on a home.

To your second idea of having the idler stop at the top. I did consider that and there is an easy way to do it from a design point of view. However I decided not to because tension can then be applied to the cylinder using the key via the idler and would make bumping and other methods easier. What solidified my decision was when your operating the lock with a little forward force which is almost natural the key pops in to the torque hole easily and if you had a chance to play with the lock you would probably agree that the stop is unnecessary. The free idler is what makes this lock tricky. The idler is held in line by the key when the key inserts into the torque hole and every thing works nicely. But if you don't have this alignment provided by the key then the idler becomes a problematic barrier to tampering as it can turn slightly and ruin your possibility of opening the lock using tools.

All in all this lock is not for everybody because it is a bit more complicated to use, but even my 65 year old mother who is so mechanically un-inclined it is "classic" can easily operate it and does quite often. She was one of my first supporters on kickstarter even though i will be giving her the locks for free when we do the first large batch.

And Gizmag has picked up the story and we are getting quite a bit of spin-off press coverage now. I'm still certain our kickstarter wont make it but its nice to see someone in the media taking an interest.

Regards,
Ryan

[mh]

Congratulations on the gizmag.com article, it'll surely help, and other media might start picking it up.

Regarding wear testing - something I have seen at lock factories, is that they mount locks in highly frequented doors (such as their cafeteria or even the bathrooms) and a matching key on a chain, and then encourage their employees to operate them. Of course they also have robots to run wear tests, but I like the "real life" test case a lot. Might be something you could also do.

Cheers
mh

[mh]

Maybe it would be a good idea to mention the Gizmag article on your website and on the Kickstarter page, other Kickstarter projects tend to do that and it might add credibility for some new readers.

Cheers
mh

[Bowley Lock Company]

Mh,
I followed your recommendation on both the kickstarter and our website. Thanks.