Replacing cylinder in a Yale Lockmaster multipoint lock?

[lock_schmock]

Hi there. I was wondering if anyone might be able to provide some advice on replacing the cylinder in a Yale Lockmaster multipoint lock. I don't know the exact model of the lock, but it has a deadbolt, three hooks and a bolt that shoots out the bottom. I am located in Canada but apparently this type of lock is not widely sold here (if at all). I imagine the folks that made our door imports them from the UK or Europe. When I try searching for any information on the web, the only site that seems to have anything remotely related to is it the Yale UK site. I've tried getting in touch with them to see if they can provide a manual or instructions but have not received any response.

Most locks of this type seem to use Euro Profile cylinders, but this one does not appear to do so. I've tried taking off the handle to see if the cylinder can be removed from the inside, but can't figure out a way to do it. Basically just trying to replace the cylinder with a higher security one, while trying to avoid the need to replace the entire locking mechanism altogether (assuming I could even find one in Canada). Here are some photos of the lock: https://goo.gl/photos/gf3H89xCdXFRh9xE7.

Any suggestions or thoughts would be most appreciated.

[GWiens2001]

The overall format makes me think of a Scandinavian Oval format. Most of those are held in by a screw on the inside. But do not see any screws on the inside.

Have you removed the plate on the door edge to see if there is a screw that holds the lock cylinder in place, as in a mortise cylinder?

Gordon

[jimu57]

It may require the key to remove the cylinder.

[lock_schmock]

Thanks for the quick responses - most appreciated.

I tried using the key to turn it from the outside after having removed the inside plate, but it seems to be held in place by something else. No luck pulling it out from the inside either.

And yes, thanks for the tip on the Scandinavian Oval, but while it appears to be the same, the oval part is actually part of the plate that attaches to the door, with cylinder being a distinct and separate part, whereas with the Scandinavian Oval, the oval portion is integral to the cylinder.

The edge of the door has a little plastic plug. I thought that might be the cover for a screw that holds the cylinder in place, but when I remove it I can't see anything that remotely looks like a screw or hex key anywhere. The other screws on the edge all appear to be used to hold the whole lock mechanism in place, rather than a plate.

[Squelchtone]

If you have removed the inside handle and removed the inside plate, can you pull out the outside handle, and then pop the outside plate away from the door? It looks to me like a KIK cylinder is inside that outside cover, because your inside door photo shows the place a euro profile cylinder would slide into but the area the bible would occupy is empty. The outside cover may have 2 posts coming out of it which go into the door, those posts are what the inside screws thread into. You may need to get a screwdriver from the inside of the door and push it against those metal posts and maybe even give them a tap to push the outside plate out of the door. *This is my theory, your lock construction may in fact not be like this at all*


Here's some stuff EMTEK (another ASSA Abloy Group owned company) makes http://www.knobs-etc.com/multi-point.htm

As you can see the outside cover plate has posts that go through the lock case inside the door and the inside plate screws screw into those posts:



I believe your cylinder and outside plate will come off as one piece.


fun fact: The internet tells me that Paddock Lockmaster entered the North American market in 2009 and was the acquired by ASSA Abloy Group in 2011 and sold under their Yale brand.

[lock_schmock]

Oh wow - this is totally awesome - thanks very much Squelchtone - will give it a try tomorrow. Really hoping this is what it is.

[GWiens2001]

As you have just seen, Squelchtone is the resident Master of Google-Fu.

Gordon

[lock_schmock]

Squelchtone - as you rightly suspected, there was a KIK cylinder inside. Thanks very, very much for the guidance. I now realize it was sorta dumb for me not to have taken off the front cover to take a look. I've updated the shared folder of pix referenced in my original post in case anyone is curious what it looks like.

Just to push my luck a bit more, I was wondering if someone could point me to a guide or something on replacing KIK cylinders. The site from which I'm planning on purchasing (SecuritySnobs) has some helpful info, but I can't tell, for example, if replacement cylinders include the knurled part and tail, or if I need to remove the one on the existing cylinder to reuse with the replacement, as I can't quite figure out how to remove it. There's a tiny spring loaded pin that seems to do something to prevent the knurled part from being incorrectly removed, but I'm a bit worried about messing with that without actually knowing what I'm doing (I have this vision of this tiny pin jumping out and getting lost).

Thanks all!

[Squelchtone]

Squelchtone - as you rightly suspected, there was a KIK cylinder inside. Thanks very, very much for the guidance. I now realize it was sorta dumb for me not to have taken off the front cover to take a look. I've updated the shared folder of pix referenced in my original post in case anyone is curious what it looks like.

Just to push my luck a bit more, I was wondering if someone could point me to a guide or something on replacing KIK cylinders. The site from which I'm planning on purchasing (SecuritySnobs) has some helpful info, but I can't tell, for example, if replacement cylinders include the knurled part and tail, or if I need to remove the one on the existing cylinder to reuse with the replacement, as I can't quite figure out how to remove it. There's a tiny spring loaded pin that seems to do something to prevent the knurled part from being incorrectly removed, but I'm a bit worried about messing with that without actually knowing what I'm doing (I have this vision of this tiny pin jumping out and getting lost).

Thanks all!

if you were to get a Bilock, Abloy Protec, or Medeco or Mul-t-lock replacement retrofit Schlage style KIK cylinder you'd get the whole thing, so you wont have to take apart the old Schlage kik you took out. Important thing to check: does the flat metal tailepiece coming out of the knurled nut turn 180 degrees in either direction without the key being inserted in the lock cylinder, or is it still and does not turn at all, unless you insert the key and turn the keyway and then the flat metal tailpiece only turns then? If the tailpiece can turn without the key being inserted into the keyway then the tailpiece is called a lazy tailpiece. otherwise it would be called a fixed position tailpiece, in your case the vertical position. If you decide you want to get Bilock instead of Abloy, you can also buy Bilock cylinders from member Globallockytoo, he's a locksmith, and will more than likely be able to tell you right away which model Bilock cylinder and which tailpiece kit you will need to replace that Schlage.

If ordering from Snobs tell them you want to send a photo of you cylinder, this will help Nick figure out what part is correct. One thing I'm worried about, is if your cylinder is 5 pins or 6 pins, can you count the valleys in your key? if 5 pins it is a shorter body, if 6 pins it is a longer KIK cylinder body, if your current one is 5 and you buy a Bilock or Abloy that is the size of a 6 pin cylinder, it may not fit into your outer plate. Just something to watch out for.

Good luck with your project, let us know how it comes out!
Squelchtone

[billdeserthills]

I think you'll actually find that rather than a Key In Knob cylinder, it is a deadbolt cylinder. It is easy to verify, does the tailpiece on your cylinder turn back & forth?
If so you actually want a B-series schlage deadbolt type cylinder. Even that may require a bit of filing, if the cylinder pocket is tight.

[lock_schmock]

Thanks very much gents.

Squelchtone - appreciate the advice and yes, it appears to be a lazy tailpiece as it does turn 180 degrees freely without the key inserted. I've decided to go with the Abloy as I wanted one key for a variety of locks, including some padlocks, which Evva and Bilock didn't seem to have. Rather a shame as the Bilock has that nifty quick change thing, which seems quite handy. Also liked the Abloy single cylinder lockable deadbolt. Seems handy.

Appreciate the tip on the cylinder length. As far as I can tell, it's a six pin, but I may be miscounting. I have however sent the Snobs folks a picture of the cylinder beside a ruler, so hopefully they'll be able to tell me if the fit will be a problem.

Billdeserthills - thanks also for the suggestion. I'm actually not sure what a deadbolt cylinder is, as compared to a KIK cylinder. That being said, it does look very much like the latter - at least when I compare the picture of the existing cylinder to those of KIK cylinders on the Snobs site.

Perhaps on a somewhat related note, in searching about for info on KIK cylinders, I came across some rather worrisome videos on "lock snapping", which got me a bit worried. The primary reason I've decided to switch to higher security cylinders was to prevent (or at least reduce the likelihood) of bumping, but lock snapping seems to be just as quick. Most of the videos I've seen highlight this as a weakness of euro-cylinder locks. It also seems that in most cases the outside shield seems to be a bit on the flimsy side and not really anchored to the door very solidly.

The reason I found it worrisome is because with the lock I have, the KIK cylinder is attached to the outside shield, so that if someone were able to remove it, they would have ready access right away. It seems somewhat solid and, unlike in the videos, it is anchored to the inside shield with two bolts. I don't know if that would make it difficult to pry off (and would prefer not to try testing it by trying to remove it). I did a search to see if lock snapping was something that my type of lock was susceptible to, but wasn't able to find anything. Perhaps no surprise given the dearth of information that I could find on my setup generally.

Also perhaps not surprisingly, I wasn't able to find much information on reinforcing this type of setup. What I was able to find regarding safeguarding against lock snapping all focused on the euro cylinder - either replacing it with one that was strengthened against snapping or with other safeguards, none of which apply to the lock I have. Any thoughts or suggestions on this, either as to whether or not this is a real risk or, if it is, if there are ways to prevent it (or at least make it more difficult) would be most appreciated.

[lock_schmock]

After sending SecuritySnobs a bunch of pix of the existing cylinder, from all possible angles and beside a ruler, I got the following response:

To confirm whether any of the Abloy KIK cylinders would work for your application, we would need to have you send the locks in to us so that we could check them with our cylinders. Unfortunately, there isn’t any other way to make sure you get one that will definitely work since Abloy only provides the compatibility list shown on the product page.

-Anastacia

<sigh>

I suppose that's fair enough, but since I don't have any extra cylinders lying about, not too keen on leaving the front door unlocked for a week or two...

[billdeserthills]

After sending SecuritySnobs a bunch of pix of the existing cylinder, from all possible angles and beside a ruler, I got the following response:

To confirm whether any of the Abloy KIK cylinders would work for your application, we would need to have you send the locks in to us so that we could check them with our cylinders. Unfortunately, there isn’t any other way to make sure you get one that will definitely work since Abloy only provides the compatibility list shown on the product page.

-Anastacia

<sigh>

I suppose that's fair enough, but since I don't have any extra cylinders lying about, not too keen on leaving the front door unlocked for a week or two...

I don't know where you live, in the US you could just go to home depot and get a schlage B 60 deadbolt & take the cylinder out of it & see if it fits in your lock housing. That way you could tell security snobs that a schlage deadbolt cylinder will fit--They should know if their cylinders are compatible with schlage

[Squelchtone]

After sending SecuritySnobs a bunch of pix of the existing cylinder, from all possible angles and beside a ruler, I got the following response:

To confirm whether any of the Abloy KIK cylinders would work for your application, we would need to have you send the locks in to us so that we could check them with our cylinders. Unfortunately, there isn’t any other way to make sure you get one that will definitely work since Abloy only provides the compatibility list shown on the product page.

-Anastacia

<sigh>

I suppose that's fair enough, but since I don't have any extra cylinders lying about, not too keen on leaving the front door unlocked for a week or two...

-They should know if their cylinders are compatible with schlage

They are but the OPs cylinder is a Schlage cylinder in a lock body not made by Schlage, so who knows which of the 4 Abloy cylinders made for Schlage are the proper one. My money is on CY410 with a 180 degree rotation tailpiece. The CY409 is the 5 pin short KIK, and the CY406, CY406-1,and CY406-2 use horizontal or vertical tailpieces that aren't lazy.

But at $90 a KIK plus the price of keys, it's an expensive and time consuming lesson if they ship the wrong one to the customer, so I'm sure they're just being over cautious. Your idea with buying a B60 deadbolt and testing to see if it fits and works in OPs current door is a good one, at least you can go back to Snobs with that info.

[lock_schmock]

Thanks again gents for the very helpful information. That's a great suggestion billdesrthills - I'll give it a shot, despite the temptation to to throw caution to the wind, take a gamble and just order the CY410.

I don't suppose either of you would know whether B60 deadbolt I'd pick up at Home Depot is the same as the "Schlage deadbolt B-160N, B-660P" that is identified as being compatible with the CY410, would you? Just asking because if it is and if the B60 cylinder matches up, I'll just go ahead and order the CY410 without bugging the Snobs folks again.