having a hard time with a serrated american

[BSG_314159]

It turns out American Locks have a pretty strong counter spring and I had probably had it pick for a week or two I just hadn't turned it hard enough afterward. I guess patience isn't always a virtue

American Locks have two kinds of cams (retainers). The ones with springs (not key retaining) and the ones without springs (key retaining) . I have found that most of the US (GOV) american locks are key retaining and have no counter spring.

(Left has no spring or tension on the key. The right has a counter spring) this is out of the same model american lock one a US government (left) one a civilian (right)


With the American locks with a spring tensioned I would recommend still the light tension but when you then you have it set apply some force. If it does not turn the back off and back to light tension. A modular tension teqnique is my approach.

** if you push in the shackle while you pick it takes the spring tension of the ball barrinings locking in the shackle. Use a key and try to open up a lock then push in the shackle and turn the key. Huge difference!

[HT4]

For me, the perfect American lock tools are (i) .050" non-serrated pry bar, (ii) Peterson .018" standard hook, and (iii) Peterson .018" #7 hook. The non-serrated pry bar is perfect because the short end is a smidgen longer than the serrated version and reaches the PERFECT distance into the keyway. If you use the serrated version, you need to use the long end and you loss some control and feeling. I see that BSG_314159 suggests sanding the tool down to .045". I have never had a problem fitting the .050" tool into an American keyway, so I don't recommend that. I prefer the .018" picks because it allows you to pick from the bottom of the keyway without any rubbing on the warding at all (which you will get using a .025" pick). This little bit of extra clearance pays dividends in feedback. The "7 hook is for when you need just a little bit of extra reach... I don't need this one often.

Moving on to serrated pins... I own about 30+ American locks and practice on them regularly. I don't have any words of wisdom other than to practice. After some quality time spent with these locks you will notice a difference in the sound of a serration vs pin setting, and you will notice a difference in the feel of setting vs hitting a serration. It is subtle at first, but after some time, it becomes more and more obvious.

For what tis worth, I got really frustrated with American locks in the beginning. I found it was much easier to pick the cores after removing them from the locks... I then moved on to picking the cores while in the lock bodies as my skills developed.

[nite0wl]

Peterson's .0018" picks are great for the American Lock keyways, they typically are exactly thin enough to move (almost) perfectly vertically in the keyways while still having the necessary strength to manipulate the pins and provide good feedback. Either version of the thicker Peterson Pry-Bar should fit well in an American lock (sanding is optional and depends largely on the minor tolerance variations of both the tool and the lock) the main thing is that the vertical face of the cutout in the tip of the Pry-Bar should be able to press against the face of the plug while the shaft of the tool is well clear of any part of the lock's body.

[ggpaintballer]

I've commented on this issue previously. I would now consider myself an intermediate lockpicker. When I was first starting everyone recommended light tension on serrated. I had it drilled into my mind so much it was too little and I wound up dropping pins. For me what finally worked was a peterson gem, slim, from the bottom of the keyway, with what I would still consider heavy tensions. Sometimes you can use the flex within the pick to vary how much pressure you're applying to the pin itself. That's what worked for me and I still pick American heavily serrated from bottom of the keyway using a euro Peterson gem. Tension is so specific personally. I guess most people start out to heavy which is why the forum recommends lighter, but for me I needed heavier. Feel the clicks. There is no formula but I guarantee through trial and error you will figure it out.

[Davis]

When I was learning to pick American Locks my first problem was applying too much tension. After a week or two I got the light tension right. For a month I tried to pick it and all the pins would seem to set but the plug would not turn. Eventually I got mad because I was sure I had it picked so I applied a ton of tension and the lock popped right open. It turns out American Locks have a pretty strong counter spring and I had probably had it pick for a week or two I just hadn't turned it hard enough afterward. I guess patience isn't always a virtue

Not related to American locks, but I had a similar experience with a Schlage D series entrance knob that I needed to pick and rekey for a customer. By good fortune, I was applying tension clockwise, which is the only direction it would turn, even afterwards. The cylinder had moved slightly (my skills aren't as refined as a lot of yours on here), but it wasn't turning further. I wasn't certain if I had just not set all the pins, or if it was picked and I was encountering the spring tension inherent in a Grade 2 commercial knob/lever. I decided that I was pretty sure I had it picked, so I maintained tension, inserted another (more rigid) tension wrench in the keyway, and turned harder. The latch retracted, I popped the knob off, and I proceeded with my work.

Any good quality lock which requires turning the key against spring tension, is thereby more difficult to pick than an equivalent lock which has no counter spring. Not that the cylinder itself may be more difficult to bring to shear, but it can be difficult to know whether one is working against the pins not setting, or the rotational force of the springs, to turn the cylinder and unlock the lock in question.

Davis

[Mr_Bones]

I like to tension them with the thickest TOOOL top-of-keyway tool and use extremely light tension

[jimu57]

Bosnianbill has a nice video on Youtube about attacking locks with serrated pins. Might help some.

Jim

[GWiens2001]

Learn to listen to the pins as you pick them. Serrated pins will sound like this...

click, click, Clack

The number of clicks will vary by the number of serrations. But the sound will help you pick them.

Gordon

[Bond007]

When cuttinedge1 mentioned he may have had the lock picked a few times but wasn't applying enough tension to overcome the spring reminded me of my worst locksmithing nightmare. I was trying to impression a key for a Fiat truck in Italy and wasn't having any luck. The key would get to a point and just stop marking. I tried it four times but no luck. Eventually the key was found and I tried it in the steering column. No workee! I said to myself, "Now I've done it, I ruined the lock in the column with all my impressioning". It finally dawned on me to try and wiggle the steering wheel. The lock turned. The driver had pulled the key out while she was applying turning pressure on the steering wheel. #$%@&*:^! So the customer got four spares and I learned a lesson not to be forgot.

[kwoswalt99-]

test

There's a thread for that. http://www.lockpicking101.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1065

[Br0keN]

Now that you got an american down you should consider buying abus padlocks.

[Shackle Jackal]

I recently acquired four American 1305's that I do not have the ability to pick (yet), so i would like to remove some pins stacks and start that way. I do not have the key to be able to remove the stacks, I know that certain topics cannot be discussed in the open forum, including how to get this lock open without picks or a key, so if someone could please PM me with some advice it would be greatly appreciated... If not I understand... 50 days 50 posts.

[mseifert]

I recently acquired four American 1305's that I do not have the ability to pick (yet), so i would like to remove some pins stacks and start that way. I do not have the key to be able to remove the stacks, I know that certain topics cannot be discussed in the open forum, including how to get this lock open without picks or a key, so if someone could please PM me with some advice it would be greatly appreciated... If not I understand... 50 days 50 posts.

there is a way .. but they are pickable .. just check out some YouTube videos ..

[tpark]

I recently acquired four American 1305's that I do not have the ability to pick (yet), so i would like to remove some pins stacks and start that way. I do not have the key to be able to remove the stacks, I know that certain topics cannot be discussed in the open forum, including how to get this lock open without picks or a key, so if someone could please PM me with some advice it would be greatly appreciated... If not I understand... 50 days 50 posts.

The standard keyway on the American padlock is pretty open, so I use top of the keyway tensioning and a black handled Peterson Gem, or one of my 20 thou homemade picks. Some of the older American padlocks had all serrated drivers, but now it's usually a combination of them. There's a bypass for this lock. If I couldn't pick the lock, I would bypass it, remove the core, then shim it. After I got the plug out, I would make a key for the lock, and hope the other locks I had were keyed alike.

After a bit of practice, you'll find that the American padlocks can be picked consistently. Once you figure out where the spools are, and the binding order, it should be short work to get it open.

[Shackle Jackal]

I am aware they can be picked just not by me(yet). I think SPP'ing the 1305 is a little beyond my skills, thus the hope of reducing the pins stacks to learn serrated in a more controlled manner. I can see that the first key pin in the lock is serrated and i think this has spooked me...

also part of my struggle is with TOK on this lock which i notice every video of the 1305 uses. Wish i had gotten the Peterson flat bar set, stupid rookie move i got taken in by sparrows comb bars, which are all the same thickness. I feel that the Sparrows TOK stuff is a little too thin, and keeps slipping in the keyway. It has been said that 9/10 errors are caused by the operator, so im sure with a little/lot more practice I will get the 1305s open.

I appreciate the feedback !