Lock Box inside safe

[BigHitter]

I bought a Victor Safe 10 years ago and have had great use with it. The prior owner was a trucking company and they told me they never had a key to the inner lock box. I've tried to upen it with a set of warded skeleton keys but had no luck. Here is a photo: http://imgur.com/a/FIsHU.

Am I just too unskilled with the skeleton keys or am I missing something? Any suggestions?

[Squelchtone]

[EDIT: Moved from Beginner Lockpicking to This Old Safe]

[kwoswalt99-]

I can't tell what type of lock it is, but skeleton keys likely won't work. A close up should confirm the lock type.

[BigHitter]

Here are a few close up photos of the lock in question:
http://imgur.com/TsBdtiz
http://imgur.com/kmZMMw8

These I added a flash to try and get a view inside. I hope they help:
http://imgur.com/zbrKILc
http://imgur.com/JAdhf16

Thanks for any insight you may have.

After I get it open I'm going to need some direction on rekeying it. I'm fine rekeying Kwikset and Schlage locks but this might be a new deal.

Thanks
Greg

[BigHitter]

Here are some other photos of the safe just for kicks. My guess is that it's early 60s vintage just from the looks of it.

http://imgur.com/f5Ew9eD
http://imgur.com/N8pzuNt
http://imgur.com/61AT0e9
http://imgur.com/chpbVYH
http://imgur.com/nYDpIDL

[Squelchtone]

looks like a simple wafer lock. Do you have a lock pick set available to you? or any toolbox or alarm panel keys that you could try to fit in there and jiggle around while trying to turn it left and right? It might just open it.

a set of jiggler keys would open that lock quickly https://www.lockpickshop.com/MJIG6.html

watch this guy pick a wafer lock using some picks, if you can bend a safety pin to a wave shape and use a small screw driver to apply rotation force on the lock to keep the wafer tumblers in place as you set them, you too could do this:

[BigHitter]

Thanks for the advise.

I have a large pick set that I have tried a few things with. The reason I thought a warded skeleton key set might do it is that this whole assembly seems to turn freely. When I try to use a tension wrench the whole cylinder seems to spin without engaging anything or stopping. The closest thing I can compare this to is the very cheap lock on the paper towel dispenser at work. Maybe I'll bring the keys to that home tonight and try it. As I remember the key for it is like the warded skeleton keys but bigger so as to engage both sides of the lock at the same time.

Any other thoughts?

[Squelchtone]

Thanks for the advise.

I have a large pick set that I have tried a few things with. The reason I thought a warded skeleton key set might do it is that this whole assembly seems to turn freely. When I try to use a tension wrench the whole cylinder seems to spin without engaging anything or stopping. The closest thing I can compare this to is the very cheap lock on the paper towel dispenser at work. Maybe I'll bring the keys to that home tonight and try it. As I remember the key for it is like the warded skeleton keys but bigger so as to engage both sides of the lock at the same time.

Any other thoughts?

that outside plate may be free spinning to prevent drilling attacks. you may have to insert your tension wrench deeper in order to tension the lock. It may also be a double sided wafer where you have to rake the left and the right side.. are you using a ball, snowman or half diamond pick from that pick set? an L rake or S rake would be good too.

let us know if you open it! =)
Squelchtone

[Jacob Morgan]

In case it is not a disc tumbler lock, the rotating keyway looks like either a warded or lever tumbler lock. Looking at old pictures http://thecoinologist.com/2011/04/19/safe-find-antique-victor-lock-safe-co/, Victor used lever tumbler locks for their lock boxes on their earlier models. The keyway in your pictures does not look like it is for a lever tumbler. The keyway is too tall and no notch cut out in the ring around it.

Maybe they cut costs and went with a warded lock mid-century? If you tried out the common five-piece warded lock tools, I think those are geared more towards cheap padlocks. Just because they did not work it does not mean it is not warded. I think that finding a blank that would fit then impressioning would be the option, unless it is something silly like an Eagle 1416 ($0.70 key, mainly for paper towel holders and such).

Although it would seem less likely, apparently there is such a thing as a double sided (convenience key only?) lever tumbler lock. If that is what it is, maybe someone here can help you with it, I've never picked a lever tumbler lock.

[kwoswalt99-]

The lock is unusual, and I've never seen one before. I doubt they would just use a basic warded lock, so I'm thinking it might be a hybrid warded/lever like in some of the old Yale padlocks.

[BigHitter]

I've tried the basic warded key set but with no luck. I brought home two keys from work for the paper towel dispensers. Both the same basic design with one having slightly wider width. The wider key was too big to go in. The smaller on went in and felt light it engaged but would not turn.

As I slowed down and looked at this more carefully I noticed that the thin plate on the front spins free. As I rotate it I thought the cylinder was spinning but it does not. The cylinder seems to be mostly hollow or open in the center. When I spun the outer plate I was simple seeing the exposed hollow of the center of the cylinder. When I rotate the plate to horizontal I can see that there is a slightly more open horizontal keyway, perhaps a tenth of an inch wider than in any other direction. I could get a tension wrench to catch and hold at that horizontal point. But all the giggling with picks got me no where. It does not feel like any normal pins I have tried to pick.

I'll tray to get a couple close ups tomorrow.

Thanks
Greg

[BigHitter]

Here are three very close photos of the lock.
http://imgur.com/a/VMR0A

The top photo is with the front plate spun to a horizontal position. You can see the actual keyway spans the entire width of the opening. You can see way into the back where it looks like perhaps the tip of a warded key might fit.

The center photo shows the plate at about a 45 degree angle and you can see the walls of the cylinder in the edge of the opening of the plate.

The bottom photo is of the plate in a vertical position and is similar to the 45 degree photo in that you can see the edge of the cylinder in the edge of the opening of the plate.

You can tell by looking at all three photos that the center of the lock is pretty open. Even in the 45 degree and vertical positions the warded keys I have will fit in. For this reason I think they are too small. It seems to me they would need to only enter in the horizontal position to be wide enough to engage the (wafers?). The paper tower holder key seemed wide enough but not deep enough.

I'm trying to be helpful but my terminology is probably off by a mile. I apologize for my inexperience. You folks have been more than kind and patient.

Thanks
Greg

[Jacob Morgan]

My guess is it is warded lock. Do you have calipers you could use to measure the size of the width and thickness of the keyway? And the depth too (maybe see how far a paper clip will go into it then measure that portion)? From there one could see if a key blank catalog carries a double sided flat key that would fit that width and thickness. Ilco publishes a key blank catalog, or just post the dimensions here. There are places that will sell single blanks for little cost if it is still produced. Then you would need to impression it--soot it up and file on it to fit. Looks like it would not need much filing.

If instead it is some sort of lever tumbler lock then someone else could better help you.

[LocksportSouth]

If it's a warded lock, I'm wondering whether a set of cheap Warded lock picks would work? (There are lots of these, just search Google for Warded Lock Picks, those Sparrows ones were just the first result)

[GWiens2001]

It is pretty easy to impression a key for that type of lock. Look for a thread on impressioning a warded lock.

Gordon