Spool pins and over setting

[dhk42]

I'm trying to figure out security pins and I've been working on some spool pin exercises.

I pinned up one Kwikset clone with a standard pin in pin 1 and the rest spools. The spools are brand new and very sharp if that matters.

So pin 1 binds first and when I set it I get a good false set. The process from there is finding each binder by observing counter rotation and setting it, possibly followed by resetting anything that fell, especially pin 1, right?

I've done that several times, but I get lots of failures from over setting the spools because it requires pick bending force (with no tension at all on the tension tool) to shove it into place.

So I have a couple of questions.

1. What techniques are there for setting the spools with a bit more finesse? I've played with twisting the pick to try to control the counter rotation, but that seems like a good way to break picks. I can imagine that a perfectly fit tension tool would allow for rotation in both directions, but you won't always have a perfectly fit tension tool.

2. What are the ways to diagnose over setting? I've worked out that if I can get my false set back then I must not have over set, but I can't figure out any direct way to know when I have.

Many thanks,

David

[davesnothere11]

"Pick bending force" should not be needed on a basic Kwikset/clone with spools. Something ain't right.

What pick are you using? Do you have room with that pick to check spring pressure on all the stacks with no tension tool at all in use?

Are you sure your tension tool isn't binding up against the cylinder or any pins? TOK or BOK tension?

Edited:
To answer your question you maintain the tension (light I hope) and allow the counter rotation to move the tool but keeping the same light force on it. It should definitely be a finesse thing.

You'll know pins are overset when all the feedback is gone but the lock isn't opening. Also over set pins feel diffrent when you go back and probe them as opposed to set, binding, or free pins.

[dhk42]

Yeah, perhaps pick bending force was a poor choice of words. I definitely haven't bent any picks.

What I mean, though, is that I have to use what feels like a lot of force and when the pin sets, it is a very sudden pop that is hard to control. Unless I manually rotate the cylinder backwards as I lift.

When I say my tension is light, I mean that I can take my tension tool out and get the same effect (although I lose my set after the pop, obviously). I mostly use top of the keyway (music wire) tension, but I really don't think it matters for this.

Just now I tried again and discovered that I do have (by accident) a perfectly fitting TOK tension tool and that helps and I got an open in a minute or two by rotating backwards as I lift the spools. But when I watch videos of other people doing this (my only basis for comparison) I don't see them doing this. I feel like I am missing something.

David

[davesnothere11]

Does your lock cylinder rotate smoothly and freely with no pins in it? Is is dirty, gummed up, or do you have bits a of brass from picking practice?

It may be you need to lubricate and clean the surfaces in the lock.

[Devhad]

The more experienced then me can correct me if I'm wrong but it is my understanding that unless you know the binding order of the spool pins each time you set one you could be dropping the previously set spools back down. Going back and forth between the usual 2 spools is usually not a problem but having 4 you have to try up to 16 combinations of binding orders. You may not be over setting at much as starting over with each set pin.

[dhk42]

Lubrication! Why didn't I think of that! It changes everything, thanks. It wasn't so much old and dirty as new and never ever lubricated.

Devhad - the reason I pinned this lock exactly this way is that I know (or think I know...) that if I can't get a false set by resetting pin 1, then I must be overset somewhere. Without that information, though, I think you are right. I'd love to figure out another way to tell for times when I don't know exactly what pins are where.

[kwoswalt99-]

The more experienced then me can correct me if I'm wrong but it is my understanding that unless you know the binding order of the spool pins each time you set one you could be dropping the previously set spools back down. Going back and forth between the usual 2 spools is usually not a problem but having 4 you have to try up to 16 combinations of binding orders. You may not be over setting at much as starting over with each set pin.

Spool pins have a binding order just like any other pin.
dhk42: When a pin is overset, the key pin will have no play in it. It can be difficult to tell though, it just takes practice.

[QuantumEntangled]

You know, I have noticed with spools that if the tolerances of the lock are crappy--specifically the play of the plug in the cylinder when the plug rotates 40 degrees or so before binding--then it becomes a bear to pick. Spools require a very light touch and even lighter tension in many cases. Also you need to feel the counter rotation to identify and defeat the false set. It's hard to do when there is already so much play in the plug.

I find myself over tensioning and then I have to pry the little bastids into place which over sets them or their neighbors and can cause successfully set ones to fall. Sometimes I set and reset the same pin 6 times no joke! I get "pin confusion" with spool pinned locks but I'm getting better and you will too. Keep at it and don't give up.

[Br0keN]

I learned how to pick spools on a Abus 80ti/50 and I never felt like I had to actually rotate the plug counter clockwise with it so i suggest starting with it but if you determined well start by not getting discouraged when you drop pins because it will happen a lot and sometimes needs to happen for example i have a lock that pin 6 drops every time i pick it. also because your in a false set you can pretty much pick it in any order you want so if front to back isnt working try randomly picking pins that are giving you counter rotation and try to figure out which one is giving you the most. also watch lots of videos about it i used to watch videos while i was picking when i was first starting out.

[Strigidae]

I learned how to pick spools on a Abus 80ti/50 and I never felt like I had to actually rotate the plug counter clockwise with it so i suggest starting with it but if you determined well start by not getting discouraged when you drop pins because it will happen a lot and sometimes needs to happen for example i have a lock that pin 6 drops every time i pick it. also because your in a false set you can pretty much pick it in any order you want so if front to back isnt working try randomly picking pins that are giving you counter rotation and try to figure out which one is giving you the most. also watch lots of videos about it i used to watch videos while i was picking when i was first starting out.

Same for me as well. It is like a felt movement as opposed to a visual one. The abus seems to me to be very subtle. The movements feel dramatic but visually are not much at all. Im just a newbie though.

[tpark]

A good way to start is with an American standard keyway padlock with two spools and one regular pin in chambers 2,3, and 4. This way you can get a good general feel about what's going on in the lock. Once you have a false set, you can feel the counter rotation when lifting a spool. Once a pin is correctly set, don't push on it unless it drops when setting a spool. Don't use those plastic see through locks - the pins chew up the edge of the holes, so they don't give you the same feel as a regular core does.
Deliberately overset a pin to see how it feels. You can progress to more pins/different serrated/spool combos once you master that.

[Silverado]

I practiced with spools for a while and got a decent feel for them. You mentioned that when you feel the counter rotation, you are turning back on the cylinder so you can push the pin up easier. As already mentioned, it sounds like lubrication will help that, and afterwards you shouldn't have to turn back on the cylinder but instead just use light enough tension so that as you lift the spool into the bible the cylinder turns itself back without you changing tension (very light tension).
I have one of MrWizard's challenge locks pinned up with one standard, then 6 alternating spools/serrated pins and I still haven't picked it. Admittedly, I set it aside for while I play with some other locks I picked up.

Give that some lubricant and give it another shot! Let us know how it turns out!

[HT4]

In my video #188, I have a relatively detailed description of the tension I use to pick spools... it is different from that described elsewhere in this thread. My method is specifically designed to (among other things) make oversets less likely.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9O-CJEwcQnY&t=5s

[Silverado]

In my video #188, I have a relatively detailed description of the tension I use to pick spools... it is different from that described elsewhere in this thread. My method is specifically designed to (among other things) make oversets less likely.

After reviewing the couple videos where you discuss this, I see a very valid point. I'm going to give it a try for a while and see how this works.
I had started to favor light tension when I realized I was previously using ridiculously heavy tension. Your explanations make a lot of sense though.