New Safe - Strange Locking Mechanism

[Squelchtone]

Wondering if one or more of the change key slots are already 'unlocked', allowing the number on that dial to change.

Remove the back cover of the lock. Use your finger to hold the wheel closest to you still while you turn the dial. If the dial can still turn after it would have picked up that wheel, but the wheel itself is not turning, then it is unlocked. If the wheel will not turn, then use the change key to unlock it. Now try turning the dial. If it turns, good. Try holding the next wheel, too. You want all three wheels to be staying still when held.

Now use your change key to lock all of the wheels. Make sure the change key holes line up with the one in the back cover. Install the back cover.

Use the change key to unlock the wheels with the back cover installed. Now set your combination to the change index. Then remove the change key. Test your combination. See if it works, and be sure the numbers do not change again.

Gordon

Oops, I think I missed this reply when I posted my suggestion that one of the wheels may be unlocked, all credit goes to Gordon for posting it first.

djed, where in the US are you? It would be great if you were near one of us so we could look at the lock in person.

Squelchtone

[Squelchtone]

Will do tomorrow.

Please clarify what a wheel sandwich is. A picture would also be helpful.

David

So if you were to remove one of the 3 wheels and inspected it, you would notice it has several layers. The one wheel is made of a top and bottom with some additional parts inside. I call that a sandwich. Those parts in the middle are shown in the S&G manual, I don't have a good photo handy, but its basically a ratcheting mechanism that normally locks the central hub to the wheel locking in a certain number of the combination, of when change key is turned unlocking the ratchet so the center hub can turn to a new number and then once key is turned back locking the hub to the wheels it programs the new combination number to that wheel.

Hope that helps, Im typing this on the road, excuse any glaring typos.
Squelchtone

[C locked]

Squelchtone,

A question that is yet unanswered is the clicking I heard when I first engaged the change key. When I turned the dial left to set the first number of the combination, the safe consistently yielded a noticeable click when passing over 9 on the dial.

Does this mean anything to you?

C locked,

I previously read the S&G bible as was suggested early on but revisited the Troubleshooting section as you suggested. I can't say that I noticed anything that seems to apply but I appreciate the reminder to refer back to the document.

Your welcome, i find that any potential complications
Can be limited by working "thru the checklist" (like a pilot)

Re the clicking
Take a look at your drive cam contact points

[djed]

Squelchtone,

I'm in the Los Angeles area near Universal Studios.

I wouldn't expect someone to come by (especially if that is how they make a living) but I was thinking about mailing the lock to one of the hobbyist-experts if I can't get this figured out.

It seems I can buy a dial/lock combo for $78 plus shipping. I'm not giving up yet but am certainly frustrated.

I'll take the lock apart later today and report back.

David

[Squelchtone]

Squelchtone,

I'm in the Los Angeles area near Universal Studios.

I wouldn't expect someone to come by (especially if that is how they make a living) but I was thinking about mailing the lock to one of the hobbyist-experts if I can't get this figured out.

It seems I can buy a dial/lock combo for $78 plus shipping. I'm not giving up yet but am certainly frustrated.

I'll take the lock apart later today and report back.

David

Check out Dean Safe in Culver city in case that's a place you'd want to drop off your lock but they'll charge ya, where Gordon or I or someone else here will be happy to look at it for free =) If you do send it to someone, include your change key in case something is worn in it. I would need the lock case, internal parts, dial and spindle, and change key, no need for dial ring unless you want to throw it in so we can mark the exact change index for future changes.

Let us know here or via private message what you want to do,
Squelchtone

[GWiens2001]

And include return postage.

Gordon

[djed]

OK. So I took the lock apart again (I'm getting good at it, as it now only takes less than five minutes to disassemble and reassemble) and checked all the lock states (which were in the locked position). By checking them, I mean I opened and then locked each wheel individually. I reassembled and noticed the lock was working fine. I derived the combination but it was a bit odd since wheel two and three had the same number so I unlocked wheel three and turned it so the last number is 74. The lock now opens consistently while turning the dial from the front only.

Because I want to make sure this lock is working as it should, my next step would be to change the combination but I don't want to do so until I check with the forum members.

Again, my lock seems odd in that the square change hole lines up with the change key hole in the cover only when I dial the combination to the opening index.

[GWiens2001]

Looking at the pictures again, think I may have it figured out. I am used to RH orientation, but your lock is LH orientation. It looks like it would have the change key line up when dialed to the opening index.

Gordon

[djed]

Now I'm confused. The bolt protrudes to the right and the spline key has been inserted in the RH symbol on the drive cam

[GWiens2001]

Now I'm confused. The bolt protrudes to the right and the spline key has been inserted in the RH symbol on the drive cam

That'll teach me to look at those pics on my tiny phone screen.

Gordon

[djed]

Any thoughts before I try changing the combo again? I was hoping someone would chime in with what I may have done wrong the last time.

David

[Raymond]

Hello Djed,
I'm back. Everyone above me was correct in telling you that one of the wheels is not set correctly. Strip down your lock again so you have all three wheels available. Using the change key turn the change key socket until the center of the wheel (change key hub) will rotate inside the wheel. Make this turn in 90 degree increments, testing at each 90 degree mark. Do this on all three wheels.

Now turn each change key socket 90 degrees clockwise and reassemble the wheels and lever into the lock. With a probe line up all the gates in the opening location. Move your probe, ( do not use the change key for this as you might accidently turn it) to insert it into the change key sockets. Slide all three wheels, (they may already be perfect) until the probe goes into the hole in the back case which is the alignment locator hole. Carefully take out the probe without moving any wheels. Put the cover back on. Now insert the change key and turn it 90 degrees counter clockwise, (feel the click). Instead of setting a complicated combo just turn the dial left (4) several times and stop on 50. Turn the change key back and remove. Test the lock for opening. If it opens, everything is now set up properly. Now you can set a complicated combo. Except for taking off everything, this is the exact process for setting a new combo when the lock does not have one and the owner does not care to know the currect operating combo.

All of the safes we sell are left in the 50 only combo until they are sold and we will then change them for the customer. This just makes it easier to demo many different safes.

Some old locks use the opening index as the combo change index. After closer looking at your dial ring, none of the marks appear to be a change index. Some old locks are manufactured in the mirror reverse layout. Yours is normal. All of us are used to looking at a lock, on the bench, turned in one direction. This is just habit. The terminology regarding a left or right hand and an up or down lock refers to where the bolt is pointing when viewed from the inside of the safe.

Do you realize just how much this safe servicing class would have cost you in a classroom?

Good luck.

[djed]

Raymond,

As I suspect you already know, my attempt this afternoon to change the combination did not work.

I am traveling for 24 hours but will try your suggestions upon my return and report back.

Thank you very much.

David

[Squelchtone]

In case this helps, your change index should be at 92 on the dial when 0 is at the opening index. I think you might already know this from the other lock you have, but I was messing around with a similar dial ring at work today and it had the change index marked on it.

Hope you make some progress on the lock this weekend with Raymonds instructions, good luck,
Squelchtone

[djed]

Using the change key turn the change key socket until the center of the wheel (change key hub) will rotate inside the wheel. Make this turn in 90 degree increments, testing at each 90 degree mark. Do this on all three wheels.

I've got the lock disassembled and tried the change key in the four possible different positions. Positions 1 (first 90 degree turn) and 3 (third 90 degree turn) result in the internal teeth being separated (not engaged/unlocked) while positions 0 (no turn) and 2 (second 90 degree turn) are locked. Is position 0 the same as 2 or am I missing something? Same question for position 1 and 3.

The wheels make a click when unlocking using the change key but do not click when locking.

Also just noticed that (as compared to the "S&G bible") there is no torque adjuster at the base of the lock. There is an extra spacing/isolation washer that is bronze.