New Safe - Strange Locking Mechanism

[Raymond]

Knowing exactly what state each wheel is in is necessary to making it work right. Yes, some lock wheels can have 2 open and 2 locked states. What is important is to get them all syncronized.

That lock is way older than the new ones with variable resistance adjustments.

You are still on track.

[djed]

So I followed Raymond's instructions with the following results.

First, it should be noted (as Raymond pointed out) that the change squares in the wheels line up against the change hole in the cover when the combination lines up with the opening index. As Raymond noted, I assume this means this lock does not use a change index.

I was able to change the combination so all wheels unlock at 50. I still get the "click" of the drive cam turning left when the dial crosses 9 (or 10).

However, when I attempt to change the combination of each wheel to a different number, I am again able to set the first wheel by turning to the left four times, but when I try to turn the dial to the right to set the second wheel, the nose/hook of the lever catches in the drive cam and I am unable to turn the wheel any further to the right.

This has been the problem I attempted to report above in my earlier posts. I am almost (99%) certain that the locks are not out of sequence.

Did I somehow align the wheels incorrectly on reassembly? I didn't think so but it's the last thing I can think of at this point. Specifically, does it matter if the tooth sticking out the bottom of the hub of the wheel is above or below the fly. See the following:

https://imgur.com/iq25b9S
https://imgur.com/LAMnTXx

The other thing I should point out (and perhaps it's not relevant) is that the only way to get the change hole to line up is with the bolt sticking out (in the locked position). So, I have been changing the combination with the lock in the locked position. Again, this may be normal but it seems odd to a novice like me since I would expect that combination changes take place when the safe is open and presumably in the retracted/unlocked position.

[Squelchtone]

I have a lock on my work bench I'm going to take apart and see if I can get it have the exact same issue as you're having. Here's an interesting question, did you at any of the times you changed combination insert the change key into the wheelpack while the back cover of the safe lock was removed? I'm doing that right now so I can see what's going on and I'll tell ya, it's so much better with the cover on.

I'm starting to really like the idea that is what was called a zero-change lock where the opening and change index were both at 12 oclock. Normally that's used on hand change wheels, not key change wheels (as far as I have learned) so say that's the case, can you dial the combination as you normally would, insert the change key, turn it, and then dial a new combination of 25-50-75 and remove the change key, then dial 25-50-75 will it open? Ignore the nose hitting the contact point at 9 (we're pretty sure this is normal) Does the wheel pack still lock up on the 2nd wheel during changing operation?

I did see in one of your videos you dial to the change index but the change key holes are still at 6 oclock and the gates are lined up under the fence, the change key holes should be at 7 oclock and the gates should be visible under the chin of the "beak", are we in agreement that when you insert the change key this is the location of the wheel gates?

Thanks
Squelchtone

[djed]

Squelchtone,

I did insert the change key into wheel 3 when it was in the forbidden zone but have generally only tried to change the combination with the cover on. I think in one of my earlier posts, I did manipulate wheel 2 as well with the cover off. However it was a manual manipulation of one wheel at a time - not a change with the key all the way in.

As to your second question, I cannot change the number of the 2nd wheel as I cannot rotate the dial to the right. Right now, all of my numbers are set to 50 (as Raymond suggested). I can dial to 50 and open the lock OR line up the change squares with the hole in the cover. But again I would be unable to set the combo of the second wheel.

Please refer me to the video you are referring to (please just paste the link) and explain what a beak (and chin) is. I really think the square change holes only line up at 6-6:30 and not 7-7:30.

Another thought - could this cover not match the lock?

[Raymond]

You are right. I forgot about that issue. Haven't seen one in a long time. For the world, right now, I cannot remember the proper way to make that combo change. But.........
I can think of ways to do it anyway.

1. Remove the lever, replace the back cover, make the combo changes, and then reinstall the lever.

2. Put a piece of tape/thread on the lever to hold it up.

3. Correct method: Add 10 numbers to the desired combo and use the "0" index to set the altered combo. Example: if you want 23-85-31to be the final combo then set on 33-95-41. Dial the 23-85-31 to open.

[Squelchtone]

Please refer me to the video you are referring to (please just paste the link) and explain what a beak (and chin) is. I really think the square change holes only line up at 6-6:30 and not 7-7:30.

Another thought - could this cover not match the lock?

This is where the gates should be in the 'chin" under the beak/nose of the lever arm, and where the change key hole should be at 7 oclock (maybe more to 7:30 being really picky)



you can manually do this by sticking a screw driver down the gates and moving the wheel pack around until the screw driver touches the nose/lever arm and then remove the screw driver and your change key hole will be in the exact location where it needs to be. if your gates are not visible and are hiding behind the nose/lever arm then that's the opening index and the combination should not normally be change from that location. If your wheels are like in my photo, put the cover on, insert key, turn it, and dial the new combo to the change index not the 12 oclock opening index. say you dial 25-50-75, while doing the change operation on the last number, pass 75 once and stop on it the 2nd time around, remove the change key and then dial the combo of 25-50-75 to the opening index.

I also doubt your cover is the wrong one.

Squelchtone

[djed]

Raymond,

I'm confused by #3. Open or change index, I can't set the 2nd number unless I do what you said with #1 or #2.

Either way I "trick" this into working, it sounds like I will have to explain the workaround to the next owner.

This is particularly tricky since I was going to put threadlock on the screws that hold the outer cover (not the lock cover) which holds in the relocker pins. From other feedback I received, Diebold backed away from the relocker design since closing (read slamming) of the door caused the cover screws to back out and consequently a lockout.

I wonder if it's time to throw in the towel and buy a new lock.

David

[Raymond]

The lever will only drop in on the drive wheel if ALL gates are under the fence. If you knowingly set the combo 10 numbers off, the lever will not drop in, or hang up while turning right, because the gates are no longer under the fence. You can go ahead and loctite the cover screws for safety. Since you know you are setting the combo off by 10 you are still in control of setting the desired combo. It will just be 10 over. It will work.

[djed]

Squelchtone,

I apologize if I don't understand. However, the square change key holes in the wheels are not visible from the lock cover in the 7-7:30 position. I could not stick the change key in the lock if I dialed the wheel pack to that position.

I could try with the cover off if you suggest I do so.

Or, I could mail one of you the lock to try on my behalf. This has been a great learning process but I'm starting to feel like I am not understanding something simple.

David

[Squelchtone]

Squelchtone,

I apologize if I don't understand. However, the square change key holes in the wheels are not visible from the lock cover in the 7-7:30 position. I could not stick the change key in the lock if I dialed the wheel pack to that position.

I could try with the cover off if you suggest I do so.

Or, I could mail one of you the lock to try on my behalf. This has been a great learning process but I'm starting to feel like I am not understanding something simple.

David

I'd love to give it a shot in person. maybe it's something wrong with the lock, or maybe something in your dialing procedure or some basic detail in what you believe the changing procedure is like or which index to dial at which time.

I would say dont use the dial to dial it to the change position, something in that procedure is making it so your change key holes are ending up at 6 oclock, instead open the cover and manually move the wheels with your fingers or a screwdriver so that they look like my photo with the red and green lines on it and then put the cover on and I bet the change key will insert just fine, if not, then I'm starting to get stumped myself.

dont worry, we'll figure it out.
Squelchtone

[djed]

The lever will only drop in on the drive wheel if ALL gates are under the fence. If you knowingly set the combo 10 numbers off, the lever will not drop in, or hang up while turning right, because the gates are no longer under the fence. You can go ahead and loctite the cover screws for safety. Since you know you are setting the combo off by 10 you are still in control of setting the desired combo. It will just be 10 over. It will work.

Brilliant - a lightbulb just went on. That's definitely experience talking.

I'll try that tomorrow.

I'd love to give it a shot in person. maybe it's something wrong with the lock, or maybe something in your dialing procedure or some basic detail in what you believe the changing procedure is like or which index to dial at which time.

dont worry, we'll figure it out.
Squelchtone

I'll try Raymond's suggestion tomorrow and then mail you the lock on Monday.

[Raymond]

No. Please disregard my last post. All gates are already under the fence and the drive wheel will catch. Im getting too sleepy to think further. Only suggestions 1 and 2 will work easily. Bye.

[GWiens2001]

Also, if you do use Loctite, then use blue, not red!!! With blue, the screw can be removed without too much difficulty. With red, you are more likely to damage the screw trying to get it out.

Gordon

[Raymond]

I checked my sample and notes at work today and remembered that there is a plate missing from that lock. The plate is thin flat brass with bent tabs that hold the lever up when the change key is inserted. It rotates off the bolt screw. When the change key goes in the plate is lifted and held up. The other side of the plate lifts the lever. The funny thing is that I have not run across a lock out in the wild that had the plate on it. So, almost any means of removing or holding up the lever are a valid technique. I asked the boss and he said he just takes the lever off.

I think it would be easy to hook a loop of thread or dental floss around the nose of the lever and hold up as you tighten one screw on the back cover. Add the second screw, loosen the first, slide the thread out, and tighten both screws.

[Squelchtone]

I checked my sample and notes at work today and remembered that there is a plate missing from that lock. The plate is thin flat brass with bent tabs that hold the lever up when the change key is inserted. It rotates off the bolt screw. When the change key goes in the plate is lifted and held up. The other side of the plate lifts the lever. The funny thing is that I have not run across a lock out in the wild that had the plate on it. So, almost any means of removing or holding up the lever are a valid technique. I asked the boss and he said he just takes the lever off.

I think it would be easy to hook a loop of thread or dental floss around the nose of the lever and hold up as you tighten one screw on the back cover. Add the second screw, loosen the first, slide the thread out, and tighten both screws.

I have a few antique S&G locks where the back cover has the mustache shaped plate just as you describe and I didn't think they would still be using that technology in a lock made in the 60's-70's. Can't wait to solve this mystery.