Bumpkey.us?

[Squelchtone]

Hate to point this out but not one of those sites sell bump keys......

They are selling a max Depth space key

There is a huge difference between the two

Which would be what? I'm asking for a friend...

cuz my friend thought that if you use the 1 tooth pull out method, there's nothing wrong with using a max depth "999" key

Thanks for explaining
Squelchtone

[jbrint]

I thought a bump key was a space/depth key at its deepest cut? I'm not really into bumping locks but have a sparrows set and they work on the things I have tried them on.

[MBI]

It depends on what method of bumping you're using.

If you're using the "minimal movement" method where you fully insert the key, then whack it, you need to file back the shoulder of the key a little way to allow it enough space to move forward when it's hit, allowing the peaks on the key smack the pins. If you're using the "pull out" method where you fully insert the key, then back it out one click before you smack the key, you don't need to file back the shoulder.

As for removing material from the shoulder, if you are cutting your own bump keys, instead of filing the shoulder you can use a feeler gauge and insert the gauge in between the shoulder of the key blank and the key stop on the key machine. By chucking the key in the machine that way it'll offset the cuts further towards the tip and accomplish the same purpose as filing it afterward. It allows you more precision and consistency than just taking a file to the shoulder. However if the keys are already cut for you, you're pretty much just stuck with filing it.

In both methods, some people like to file the shoulder WAY back and install a rubber grommet around the key so that the shoulder won't hit against the lock face and eventually peen a divot into the face of the keyway. If you want to minimize damage to the lock, you might want to do this. Bumping can really destroy locks. We demolished several locks in an afternoon at Defcon (in 2008?) when we did some experimenting with bump keys.

While it's not a rule, some people report better results if they file the key cuts down deeper than the max cut. Anywhere from a tiny bit of filing, a half cut, or even a full cut depth deeper than the max cut. One theory of why this sometimes helps is that if you have a 9 cut on any pins in the lock, you're less likely to accidentally lift the bottom pin above the shearline if the cut is deeper than max, so the pins aren't resting directly on the key blade before you smack the key.

You can also alter the profile/angle of the peaks between the key cuts, steeper or shallower. There is no one "right" way, find what works for you.

All these minor alterations can be combined in different ways. Some people use NO alterations and can bump just fine. Others will swear by one specific combination of alterations as the best bump key. When I was experimenting a tiny bit with bump keys I tried a few different methods. I almost always inserted a feeler gauge in front of the shoulder when putting it in my code cutter, anywhere from .015" to .040" so I wouldn't have to file the shoulder. If I remember right I had the best luck with around .030". I usually cut the keys a half cut deeper than the max cut depth specification.

Sometimes I'd also use a different cutting wheel with a different cut angle so the peaks would hit the pins a bit harder. Doug Farre gave me that idea. When using a wheel with significantly steeper cuts I had to go at least a full cut deeper otherwise the peaks would be too tall. Maybe even deeper than that, I forget for sure. It made the bump key look like sharks teeth.

Basically though, a small number of us messed around with bump keys quite a lot that weekend at Defcon. I cut many dozens and dozens of bump keys for lots of people, we tried a lot of different ways of bumping. Some locks bumped really easily with just about any bump key we tried. Some locks needed a specific set of alterations on the bump key to successfully bump open. A few locks would just never open with bumping no matter what we tried. Overall, it convinced me that there is no ONE perfect way to cut or to use bump keys.

And that pretty much cured me of my curiosity with bumping and I haven't done much with them since then. If I never cut another bump key, I'll be happy with that.

[Big Jesse]

Not even sparrows bump keys are actually bump keys

thats utter nonsense. they are 100% bump keys, cut at the lowest depth per key, which is a bump key. sparrows only sells bump keys, and they do not sell depth keys. if i have to describe what a depth key is to you, then you started posting way too soon. dont talk bad about a reputable company if you dont know what you are spitting out. thats slander.

[Big Jesse]

Hello,

Just saw this thread. Im interested in ordering a comprehensive set but Im not sure who to order from. Do any of you have a recommendation other than the suspect listed here?

Thanks,

I bought my complete set of bump keys from lockpicks.com i paid around $100 at the time, but the set of 35 keys goes for $120. the reason they are so expensive is I went with the Nickle/Silver option, which means the keys are more durable as brass keys are softer. I love my set, worth every penny. I also bought both of the bump hammers.

[sleepyrz]

If you look at a bump key made by one of these compa ies who have no idea what they are doing you will see that on the tip there is a large chunk of metal that is not the same height as the other "teeth". this will overset any tall pins


Look at the key on The left see the over sized chunk of metal at the tip

If you have one of these take a core and pin it up to max depth in all the spaces and then put in the bump key when you pull back the bump key the one click note the last pin and how high it goes it will overset

now look at the bumpkey on the right, see how it doesn't have the big triangle at the end?

This is what it should look like


If you go to buy bumpkeys and you see this large triangle atthe endthe people making them have no clue what they are doing

Yes it may work occasionally if the lock is pinned with a " short" pin in the last chamber

But it's still not a bump key

[Big Jesse]

now look at the bumpkey on the right, see how it doesn't have the big triangle at the end?
This is what it should look like

but that doesnt explain why you would say sparrows doesnt make bump keys when they clearly make the same keys are you showing.

[jbrint]

I picked up the sparrows set sometime ago and they all look like a bump key should look like. I have used them to cut other bump keys and other people have used them to bump locks without issue as well. Maybe you received a bum key from them but I feel very good about the quality of keys that I have received from them.They even have an extra bit of material on the back end of the key for striking.

[sleepyrz]

This is their standard set taken from their website 1 minute ago





And a closer look

[jbrint]

This is their standard set taken from their website 1 minute ago





And a closer look

These are of the actual product from my toolbox from 1 minute ago. I am not trying to argue but this is a bump key set.



And a closer look....

[Squelchtone]

Not to stir the pot but perhaps there appears to be several schools of though here. I'd like to remind everyone to respect each others opinions on what works and what doesn't. We're all here for the same purpose, right? For the love of locks and opening them and discussing said topic with like minded community members.

I'd like to direct everyone to this 2005 article by TOOOL Netherlands about bumping high security locks. Their photos show the large unmodified tip, and they also talk about taking some material off the shoulder and the tip so the key can go in a little deeper into the lock for better results.

Take a look: https://toool.nl/images/7/75/Bumping.pdf

Perhaps it has been discovered that cutting down that first cut as low as the other produces better results but there are plenty of older stock photos and older sets still in stock at various places still making their rounds.

Squelchtone

[sleepyrz]

it depends on how the bumpkey was intended to be used

the unmodified tip ( large triangle on the end) is for the type where you file down the key stop so it goes in further than its supposed to

the type shown above are for the method where you pull out one "click"

the problem is when the websites sell you type one and show you how to use them using method two

they basically dont know better

and if you look at sparrows video from when they first came out they show the unmodified tip with the one click method

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47pMuxGVJdc

im glad they figured it out and are now selling the correct keys for the method they have shown

[jbrint]

Just as a point of reference I have had these keys since September of last year, so this could be a transitionary thing from one version to another. Again wasn't trying to argue, was just confused as I knew what I had received and it was nothing like pictured.

[Darkhigh412]

Stay away from www.bumpschool101. com also! Scaled me out of my money!

[jimu57]

I am making actual bump keys. Not max depth 999 keys. Was talking with Bosnian Bill and he suggested I start making bump key singles and sets. I already give away some bump keys with challenge/practice locks I sell on Ebay. They are basically a bonus giveaway since selling bump keys on Ebay is not allowed. I have even been including ASSA bump keys with the oval type challenge locks. Is there a need for a source of good actual bump keys? I keep hearing that most of what people buy are not very good.