Door knobs vs. Deadbolts

[Squelchtone]

cledry and billdeserthills, please don't alienate or jump on new or existing members. That's not mighty neighborly of you guys. He's learning and trying, so please be helpful, no condescending or confrontational. He's not a professional locksmith with years of experience like you guys, but he's clearly making an effort to learn. We don't need veteran members chasing away new members (unless they're punk-ass criminals, in which case be my guest.)

I was going to send this as a PM, but you know what.. I've seen this pattern before in other posts, recently actually, so please try to be kind to fellow members. I shouldn't even have to put this down in writing . There's a time and place for occasionally being snarky to each other but not snarky all the time. Also, it is hard to tell tone of voice on a forum, so what sounds to you like a perfectly normal response, may sound really unfriendly to someone reading it. And I'm not saying you have to be sugary sweet to each other, but be mindful of that.


as for why Oatmealer might think he has a Grade 1 Schlage it's because of sneaky marketing on Schlage's part where the actual bolt is rated Grade 1, but the rest of the housing and cylinder and parts used are Grade 2, but the package says it's a Grade 1 deadbolt and the consumer doesn't know any better. They don't go out of their way to make this clear, and unless someone is in the know, most folks don't realize that the Schlage B60N you buy at Home Depot is not the same model or quality as a Schalge B660 you would buy from a locksmith shop.

play nice everyone
Squelchtone

[Oatmealer]

cledry and billdeserthills, please don't alienate or jump on new or existing members. That's not mighty neighborly of you guys. He's learning and trying, so please be helpful, no condescending or confrontational. He's not a professional locksmith with years of experience like you guys, but he's clearly making an effort to learn. We don't need veteran members chasing away new members (unless they're punk-ass criminals, in which case be my guest.)

I was going to send this as a PM, but you know what.. I've seen this pattern before in other posts, recently actually, so please try to be kind to fellow members. I shouldn't even have to put this down in writing . There's a time and place for occasionally being snarky to each other but not snarky all the time. Also, it is hard to tell tone of voice on a forum, so what sounds to you like a perfectly normal response, may sound really unfriendly to someone reading it. And I'm not saying you have to be sugary sweet to each other, but be mindful of that.


as for why Oatmealer might think he has a Grade 1 Schlage it's because of sneaky marketing on Schlage's part where the actual bolt is rated Grade 1, but the rest of the housing and cylinder and parts used are Grade 2, but the package says it's a Grade 1 deadbolt and the consumer doesn't know any better. They don't go out of their way to make this clear, and unless someone is in the know, most folks don't realize that the Schlage B60N you buy at Home Depot is not the same model or quality as a Schalge B660 you would buy from a locksmith shop.

play nice everyone
Squelchtone

Thank you for the clarification on the Schlage locks. These ones in particular were bought from Lowes. They were marketed as Grade 1, for $70ish. No where near $300... That definitely confused me. So, I'd assume they are exactly the ones you're speaking of. I knew that the quality of the locks at a big box store would never be the quality of the ones at a Locksmith shop, but I wasn't aware of the sneaky marketing. That's great information.

I also appreciate the support. I'm sure these guys are super-knowledgeable and that's what I'm looking for. I really didn't expect some of the comments I had gotten in a beginners thread, but I get that these guys probably lack patience for the beginners. I've been playing most of the stringed musical instruments for 25 years, but I lack the teaching ability because I just expect people to pick up a guitar and be able to play it. I understand.
I can handle snarky, and I'll keep an eye out for it and take it with a grain of salt. I've been reading threads here for a while now and I've seen so much good information and knowledge to gain. I'll go back to lurking in the shadows until my next question needs some answers.

Thanks again.

[GWiens2001]

Am not a locksmith, but from what I understand, the "grade 1" of Schlage locks at a big box store is not the same "grade 1" Schlage that a professional locksmith sells. I can certainly tell the difference in quality when handling the locks. The big-box stores may say they are "grade 1". But there is a world of difference.

Think that difference in what a true "grade 1" deadbolt is, compared to what a big-box store calls "grade 1" is the source of Bill's legitimate question as to what makes the OP think he is picking a "grade 1" deadbolt. Bill was probably trying to clarify which grading scale the OP was using.

Gordon

[cledry]

cledry and billdeserthills, please don't alienate or jump on new or existing members. That's not mighty neighborly of you guys. He's learning and trying, so please be helpful, no condescending or confrontational. He's not a professional locksmith with years of experience like you guys, but he's clearly making an effort to learn. We don't need veteran members chasing away new members (unless they're punk-ass criminals, in which case be my guest.)

I was going to send this as a PM, but you know what.. I've seen this pattern before in other posts, recently actually, so please try to be kind to fellow members. I shouldn't even have to put this down in writing . There's a time and place for occasionally being snarky to each other but not snarky all the time. Also, it is hard to tell tone of voice on a forum, so what sounds to you like a perfectly normal response, may sound really unfriendly to someone reading it. And I'm not saying you have to be sugary sweet to each other, but be mindful of that.


as for why Oatmealer might think he has a Grade 1 Schlage it's because of sneaky marketing on Schlage's part where the actual bolt is rated Grade 1, but the rest of the housing and cylinder and parts used are Grade 2, but the package says it's a Grade 1 deadbolt and the consumer doesn't know any better. They don't go out of their way to make this clear, and unless someone is in the know, most folks don't realize that the Schlage B60N you buy at Home Depot is not the same model or quality as a Schalge B660 you would buy from a locksmith shop.

play nice everyone
Squelchtone

We are talking about a doorknob not a deadbolt, I even specifically mentioned that in my post. I retract my statement about a pick gun destroying a collapsible bible Schlage residential lockset, I say go for it if you want to prove a point. I guess you can't win by offering experienced advice on this forum.

[cledry]

Just for info. True grades listed below.

Schlage D line = Grade 1
Schlage A line = Grade 2
Schlage F line = Grade 3

Anything else is marketing but you weren't to know this. That is another reason why I never mentioned the grade but mentioned the collapsible bible which is a well-known design flaw and a reason why I mentioned not to use a pick gun on this model.

Schlage D line knob cost @ $360
Schlage A line knob cost @ $140
Schlage F line knob cost @ $34

[MBI]

...I think the issue you are having is due to the collapsible bible and the t-pins... Frankly the fact that the locks still functions after using a pick gun is a miracle.

That's a good point. I completely missed the mention of a pick gun in the original post.

Oatmealer, even if may have come across unintentionally sounding like a criticism, cledry is right. Just because he's saying something you might not like, it doesn't mean he's wrong. Pick guns can wreak havoc with certain types of locks, regardless of what the pickmaker says. I'm not saying this by way of criticism of you for using a pick gun, you had no way of knowing and are just going off what the instructions with the tool said. I'm saying it for informational purposes, to corroborate cledry's experience and so you don't have to learn it the hard way.

On knob cylinders with the collapsible bible it's very common for pick guns to pop the top right off them. Sometimes even at a low setting. If you can get the pieces out of the knob sometimes it can be reassembled and work fine, but sometimes it damages it enough to put it out of service for good.

Cylinders with plastic housings are another one to watch for. Yes, plastic housings. Complete garbage. The only way to know if you have one is to take it apart. Off the top of my head I've seen it mostly on Chinese clones of Kwikset and Weiser, but if I remember right I've seen it on some "name brand" Weisers as well. At the top of the bible there is a thin groove molded into the plastic to hold the pin cap strip. The plastic tends to be extremely thin at that point and is easily fractured by the spring pressure created by a pick gun. Just something to be aware of in the future.

Also Squelch is absolutely right. I don't know how they get away with it but I've frequently seen residential lever and knobsets being marketed as Grade 1 when in reality it appears to be only one part of it that's Grade 1. I think it's not only misleading to the consumer who thinks they're getting something far better quality than they really are, but it also makes locksmiths look like they're trying to pull a fast one for selling a Grade 1 knobset for hundreds of dollars. The fact is that true Grade 1 hardware really does cost that much if the entire handle set has that rating.

The terminology in the industry can be confusing and there's no easy-to-find key for the average consumer to be able to decipher it all. Locksmiths are your best bet, but unfortunately there are also scammer locksmiths out there and it's hard for people to tell the difference from the small amount of interaction they usually have with them.

[Oatmealer]

Just for info. True grades listed below.

Schlage D line = Grade 1
Schlage A line = Grade 2
Schlage F line = Grade 3

Anything else is marketing but you weren't to know this. That is another reason why I never mentioned the grade but mentioned the collapsible bible which is a well-known design flaw and a reason why I mentioned not to use a pick gun on this model.

Schlage D line knob cost @ $360
Schlage A line knob cost @ $140
Schlage F line knob cost @ $34

Thanks cledry, I've noted this information. As you know, I'm a beginner and this helps immensly.

[Oatmealer]

...I think the issue you are having is due to the collapsible bible and the t-pins... Frankly the fact that the locks still functions after using a pick gun is a miracle.

That's a good point. I completely missed the mention of a pick gun in the original post.

Oatmealer, even if may have come across unintentionally sounding like a criticism, cledry is right. Just because he's saying something you might not like, it doesn't mean he's wrong. Pick guns can wreak havoc with certain types of locks, regardless of what the pickmaker says. I'm not saying this by way of criticism of you for using a pick gun, you had no way of knowing and are just going off what the instructions with the tool said. I'm saying it for informational purposes, to corroborate cledry's experience and so you don't have to learn it the hard way.

On knob cylinders with the collapsible bible it's very common for pick guns to pop the top right off them. Sometimes even at a low setting. If you can get the pieces out of the knob sometimes it can be reassembled and work fine, but sometimes it damages it enough to put it out of service for good.

Cylinders with plastic housings are another one to watch for. Yes, plastic housings. Complete garbage. The only way to know if you have one is to take it apart. Off the top of my head I've seen it mostly on Chinese clones of Kwikset and Weiser, but if I remember right I've seen it on some "name brand" Weisers as well. At the top of the bible there is a thin groove molded into the plastic to hold the pin cap strip. The plastic tends to be extremely thin at that point and is easily fractured by the spring pressure created by a pick gun. Just something to be aware of in the future.

Also Squelch is absolutely right. I don't know how they get away with it but I've frequently seen residential lever and knobsets being marketed as Grade 1 when in reality it appears to be only one part of it that's Grade 1. I think it's not only misleading to the consumer who thinks they're getting something far better quality than they really are, but it also makes locksmiths look like they're trying to pull a fast one for selling a Grade 1 knobset for hundreds of dollars. The fact is that true Grade 1 hardware really does cost that much if the entire handle set has that rating.

The terminology in the industry can be confusing and there's no easy-to-find key for the average consumer to be able to decipher it all. Locksmiths are your best bet, but unfortunately there are also scammer locksmiths out there and it's hard for people to tell the difference from the small amount of interaction they usually have with them.

I'm not a total pick gun guy. I merely mentioned that when I've failed with SPP, the pick gun works, telling me that it's my technique and it can indeed be opened. What you have brought to my attention is what can happen with the pick gun. All I had read previously was that it can damage it. This brings new light onto what cledry was saying. Up until just now, I had no idea what a Collapsable bible was. Obviously, if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But I need to know why I'm wrong. You've gone out of your way to better explain the content of the thread and I can see where cledry was coming from. I never said cledry was wrong, nor did I doubt him. I just needed to know why. Thank you for the explanation.

[cledry]

Here's a bit of info on cylindrical locks grading. Cylindrical means a bored lock mounted in a 160 or 161 ANSI prep.

1. Cycle test
One cycle consists of the knob or lever handle to be turned to completely retract the latch bolt allowing the test door to be opened. The knob or lever handle is then released allowing the test door to relatch. The turning direction of the knob is alternated every 100,000 cycles.

Performance tests are conducted for compliance at various intervals during and at the end of the cycle test.

Grade Cycles
Grade 1 800,000
Grade 2 400,000
Grade 3 200,000

2. Latch bolt projection
Locksets with deadlocking (guarded) latchbolts.
All grades – 1/2 inch.

Locksets with latch bolts that are not deadlatching (unguarded).
Grade 1 and 2 – 1/2 inch.
Grade 3 – 3/8 inch.

3. Dead Latch and Strike Impact Test
The number of hits or blows by various weights that can be struck.

Grade Blows/Foot Pounds
Grade 1 2 blows of 60 foot pounds
2 blows of 90 foot pounds
2 blows of 120 foot pounds
Grade 2 2 blows of 60 foot pounds
2 blows of 90 foot pounds
Grade 3 2 blows of 60 foot pounds

4. Abusive Locked Lever Test
Outside locked levers of Grade 1 locks shall be subjected to a torque of 1,000 pound inches. After the torque is applied, failure shall occur if access is gained.

[Devhad]

I also have found deadbolts to be a little bit easier. For me I think it's because the knobs are usually sideways and that kind of throws me off. Since knobs to me seem a little sloppier I usually start with raking using a snake and a very light rocking. I also hold the knob still with my tension wrench hand. 98% of knobs can be bypassed so I don't practice on them as much as I should.

Some others may have made similar suggestions so I'm sorry if I'm redundant but I stopped reading all of the replies to this post after reading a few worthless replies. Good luck and keep practicing. Eventually you will be faster at picking than finding the right key on the key ring. That's where I hope to be some day.

[Oatmealer]

Here's a bit of info on cylindrical locks grading. Cylindrical means a bored lock mounted in a 160 or 161 ANSI prep.

1. Cycle test
One cycle consists of the knob or lever handle to be turned to completely retract the latch bolt allowing the test door to be opened. The knob or lever handle is then released allowing the test door to relatch. The turning direction of the knob is alternated every 100,000 cycles.

Performance tests are conducted for compliance at various intervals during and at the end of the cycle test.

Grade Cycles
Grade 1 800,000
Grade 2 400,000
Grade 3 200,000

2. Latch bolt projection
Locksets with deadlocking (guarded) latchbolts.
All grades – 1/2 inch.

Locksets with latch bolts that are not deadlatching (unguarded).
Grade 1 and 2 – 1/2 inch.
Grade 3 – 3/8 inch.

3. Dead Latch and Strike Impact Test
The number of hits or blows by various weights that can be struck.

Grade Blows/Foot Pounds
Grade 1 2 blows of 60 foot pounds
2 blows of 90 foot pounds
2 blows of 120 foot pounds
Grade 2 2 blows of 60 foot pounds
2 blows of 90 foot pounds
Grade 3 2 blows of 60 foot pounds

4. Abusive Locked Lever Test
Outside locked levers of Grade 1 locks shall be subjected to a torque of 1,000 pound inches. After the torque is applied, failure shall occur if access is gained.

Good information! Thank you!

[Oatmealer]

I also have found deadbolts to be a little bit easier. For me I think it's because the knobs are usually sideways and that kind of throws me off. Since knobs to me seem a little sloppier I usually start with raking using a snake and a very light rocking. I also hold the knob still with my tension wrench hand. 98% of knobs can be bypassed so I don't practice on them as much as I should.

Some others may have made similar suggestions so I'm sorry if I'm redundant but I stopped reading all of the replies to this post after reading a few worthless replies. Good luck and keep practicing. Eventually you will be faster at picking than finding the right key on the key ring. That's where I hope to be some day.

Thanks!

[theTastyCat]

Oatmealer, I've had the exact same trouble. Doorknobs just jiggle more, and that makes everything one level harder. I try to keep steady pressure on it with the body of my support hand while my thumb keeps tension on the tensioner, but I can tell it's going to take a lot more practice for me not to be applying too much tension to the cylinder while I'm trying to keep the lock steady.

It's not just you! And I couldn't care less what grade of lock is on your front door.

[Oatmealer]

Oatmealer, I've had the exact same trouble. Doorknobs just jiggle more, and that makes everything one level harder. I try to keep steady pressure on it with the body of my support hand while my thumb keeps tension on the tensioner, but I can tell it's going to take a lot more practice for me not to be applying too much tension to the cylinder while I'm trying to keep the lock steady.

It's not just you! And I couldn't care less what grade of lock is on your front door.

At least it's not just me! Ha. The door is right next to ground level Windows. So, whatever grade lock it is, it's only keeping honest people honest.

Thanks!