Mosler - a gem of a safe hiding in the Gem State

[Filer_Computer_Tech]

Yes, I read the rules before I posted for my first time. I recognize there are understandable trust issues - no one knows me from Adam, but before dismissing this post summarily, please take the time to read. I fully understand there are no quick/easy tricks to open locked safes. I've done whatever research I can and am just looking for a better understanding of the mechanism for a safe from this manufacturer/era and a nudge in the right direction from people with knowledge and expertise far beyond my own.

I work as a Computer Tech for Filer School District in Idaho - have been for about 6 years now. The first year I started, I traveled to an old schoolhouse out in the middle of nowhere which just happens to be part of our school district. It is a beautiful old school house located in a town that once thrived as a hub for agricultural commerce, but as is the case for many small rural agricultural towns, as transporting goods to larger cities in the vicinity became easier and more cost effective, banks, businesses, etc. in this small town closed down over the years - in this instance, now leaving an all but derelict town with a beautiful schoolhouse in its midst.

As I walked into the lobby for the first time 6 years ago, I saw this:

http://imgur.com/a/5nTXx

You should see a few shots of what I think is a very old, decorative Mosler safe.

Bottom line, this safe is old, a piece of this small community's history/heritage (it was donated to the school by the back which closed down). We look at it as a sort of time capsule. We don't expect to find anything of value in it, but opening it is an ongoing WISH as we continue to celebrate this school's 100th anniversary. Last year, an ad was placed in the paper to anyone who wanted to come and try to manipulate the safe open (pro or amateur), but no one succeeded. We can't afford to pay someone hundreds to fly in to do it, and we certainly don't want it drilled or cosmetically damaged in any way in our attempts to open it.

Back to my role in this - yes, I'm a computer tech. Fore my entire 25+ career in various fields, including production/project management, graphic designer, engraver, and so on, I've always got ahead with my problem solving abilities. I HATE not being able to figure something out, and this safe has been taunting me for 6 years! I haven't really tried to manipulate the safe in earnest yet. I've read what I could find out about it, but most of it is company history and NOT about the specific mechanism that lies on the back side of the front door. I'm guessing it pre-dates some of the newer/common security countermeasures. This is where I need help from the experts. I do have some experience picking/manipulating pad locks and door locks, but this is a whole new realm for me, and yes, I know it's NOT going to be easy or fast to figure out!

I look forward to hearing from anyone who might be able to offer some beginning assistance as to how I might start to try and identify numbers on a Mosler safe this old. I don't know if putting any tension on the handle will help identify those notches/numbers - it just locks the dial if I put too much tension on the lever. I have messed with the dial a little bit. It's smooth for the most part (for it's age), but I don't know if I'll be able to pick up on really subtle changes in friction. I did notice that as I span the dial to the left several times, there would come a point where the weight/load seemed to increase as I was spinning. That's as much time as I've spent with it until I have someone point me in the proper direction as to the best way to try and attack/manipulate the lock.

Thank you in advance for anyone willing to help. It seems like a small/trivial thing for a school district and computer nerd to worry about - I guess we could just keep admiring it as a piece of art in the front entrance, but it would be so wonderful to be able to open this as a means to lift spirits, see what might be inside by way of a time capsule, and celebrate the history of this quaint little school.

Hope to hear from you! Please let me know if there's a better/different way I should have attached the photos and I'll do so right away.

Sincerely,

Filer_Computer_Tech

[femurat]

Hello and welcome to the forum. Here how you can show pictures in your post viewtopic.php?f=2&t=60483

6 years is a long time. I dunno if I could have waited that much before asking for help.
I'll let someone who worked with mosler safes to tell you what kind of lock you have there.
This will lead you to one method or another to manipulate it.
I can tell you one thing: drilling that safe would be a shame. First of all it's probably empty. Second, it's better a integer locked safe than a drilled open one.

Good luck and keep us updated

[averagejoe]

Alright,

Beautiful old safe you have there. I don't have a model number for it but it should be about 36"x26"x25". It is a cast iron fire safe filled with concrete and will weigh about 800 lbs.

It should have a Mosler 5H safe lock which is a 4 tumbler combination lock. Manipulation should be possible given the lock is in operable condition and the person knows what they are doing.

[bitbuster]

if it doesn't have the 5H, i wouldn't be surprised if it has the Mosler 10 1/2 behind the door.

[Filer_Computer_Tech]

Hello and welcome to the forum. Here how you can show pictures in your post viewtopic.php?f=2&t=60483

6 years is a long time. I dunno if I could have waited that much before asking for help.
I'll let someone who worked with mosler safes to tell you what kind of lock you have there.
This will lead you to one method or another to manipulate it.
I can tell you one thing: drilling that safe would be a shame. First of all it's probably empty. Second, it's better a integer locked safe than a drilled open one.

Good luck and keep us updated

Tried following the instructions in the post-link you provided, but it doesn't seem to want to automatically download and embed the photos - perhaps because it's ann album and not a single photo? I tried encapsulating the link beteen IMG and URL tags like this "", but the preview just shows an Image icon and didn't download the pics. In any case, looks like members can click the link and view, so I guess that will do the trick for now.

Thanks for the reply

[Filer_Computer_Tech]

Alright,

Beautiful old safe you have there. I don't have a model number for it but it should be about 36"x26"x25". It is a cast iron fire safe filled with concrete and will weigh about 800 lbs.

It should have a Mosler 5H safe lock which is a 4 tumbler combination lock. Manipulation should be possible given the lock is in operable condition and the person knows what they are doing.

Thanks for the quick reply! 800lbs sound about right!! I tried to move the safe away from the wall a bit to see if there was any identifying info on a tag or label on the rear of the safe, and the safe made it quite clear that it was content to stay and sit EXACTLY where it has been for years Six years is a VERY long time - especially for a personality like mine which can't deal with the idea of not knowing how to do something I should be capable of doing with some research, effort and duct tape

Now that the lock mechanism has likely been identified comes the monumental task of turning myself into a "person who knows what they are doing". As I said, I have a basic working knowledge of how safe lock mechanisms works in general and also have limited experience manipulating padlocks and keyways with standard pins, but I think the biggest hill to climb for this safe is getting and properly interpreting any feedback by touch or sound that I might get from the lock. The dial moves quite well, but it has a little bit of drag/play in it and catches a bit as you turn it sometimes - enough to give some false positives, I suspect.

Where could One look to learn more about the 5H - how it looks on the inside, how it engages, etc.?

Much thanks!

FCT

[Filer_Computer_Tech]

if it doesn't have the 5H, i wouldn't be surprised if it has the Mosler 10 1/2 behind the door.

How/where could I find info/diagrams of teh Mosler 10 1/2?

Thanks in advance!

FCT

[Filer_Computer_Tech]

Sorry for this noob post/question, but a few members of the community have been kind enough to send me a Private Message in response to my original post. I've attempted to reply to those private messages to say thank you and also ask follow-up questions. As far as I can tell, my submitted replies are residing in my Outbox which normally, in my world, means that the messages are queued to be sent, but have not been sent yet for whatever reasons.

So, just wanted to say thanks for the replies I've had so far and if anyone can tell me if it's normal for my messages to be stuck in the Outbox, I'd appreciate it!

FCT

[Squelchtone]

Sorry for this noob post/question, but a few members of the community have been kind enough to send me a Private Message in response to my original post. I've attempted to reply to those private messages to say thank you and also ask follow-up questions. As far as I can tell, my submitted replies are residing in my Outbox which normally, in my world, means that the messages are queued to be sent, but have not been sent yet for whatever reasons.

So, just wanted to say thanks for the replies I've had so far and if anyone can tell me if it's normal for my messages to be stuck in the Outbox, I'd appreciate it!

FCT

They are unread, and will move to Sent after they are read.

[Squelchtone]

I think I'm making some progress...

http://i.imgur.com/98fE9Po.jpg

An older variant on the design, the direct-entry fence, does not use a spring-loaded lever-fence or thelever/cam arrangement as described here. Instead, the door bolt handle itself moves the fence into the wheelpack to engage the gates. Direct-entry locks are usually considered to have lower security than the Group 2design shown here and are found primarily in older containers as well as in many of the more inexpensivecurrent-production fire safes. - Safecracking for the computer scientist∗Matt Blaze

Based on the photos/illustrations generously posted and the written quote above, would it be correct to say this older style of combination lock is what is referred to as a "direct-entry" combination lock? So, contrary to modern locks which use a spring loaded cam and fence that engages automatically after the correct combination has been dialed, with "direct-entry" locks, the handle is used to slide a fence or piece of metal into the 3 aligned gates which at the same time retracts the bolts keeping the safe locked?

Can I maybe get a warmer, colder, or BINGO??

If I'm on the right track, would I be correct in assuming that the arm of the safe door might be able to be used to detect the gates due to imperfections in manufacturing/production, or is there a better way? Still not sure what the most logical approach would be for someone without advanced tools or auto-dialers.

Much thanks for all the help received thus far, both in this forum and a few others.

FCT

[bitbuster]

direct entry, or X locks, are those such as sentry , ESP, Saga, older Hall and Alpine to name a few . the locks you pictured from the Mosler manual are not direct entry locks.

[Squelchtone]

FCT,

I get it, you're excited about this safe, but slow down a little and back up a few steps, you're getting ahead of yourself and making some assumptions based on reading Matt Blaze's paper which was meant for manipulating the modern group 2 Sargent Greenleaf model 6730 lock which is a world away from that Mosler #10 1/2 lock that bitbuster correctly ID'd as being in your safe. If it's been 6 years already, please don't expect to have that safe open by week's end with our help.

Also, is it your safe to be trying to manipulate? Is whoever is in charge of that school house ok with you working on it? start telling people you're learning safe cracking, and see how quickly secretaries and teachers start grasping their purses close to them whenever you visit their school building. (how do I know? I work as a network admin for a high school district myself, and made the mistake of showing off a few times and telling folks I pick locks and safes, it really changes how people think of you, unfortunately)

Anyway, that Mosler #10-1/2 lock isn't exactly a direct entry lock but you might be able to use the handle to press against the fence and see what you can feel when turning the dial. Your lock will have a 3 number combination, and after you enter the 3 numbers, you then have to turn the dial to 34, and which point you can throw the handle.

Here's the thing though, before we write pages and pages of telling you how to get into this safe, please note, and this is covered in the rules for this sub forum that we dont normally help people get into a safe, we only help you troubleshoot basic problems and figure out the dialing instructions if you ALREADY KNOW the combination.

As fun as this thread is, it is time consuming, and it's almost impossible to share our combined knowledge to someone across the internet, it's like Tom Brady teaching you how to throw a football by him posting instructions, and you reading them on an internet forum, you know what I mean? That touch and feel portion of dialing a safe lock and pulling the handle, it's not as easy as it sounds and takes months and years to master.

Hate to discourage you, but safes were meant to be difficult to get into, even 150 years ago. If you want to dial some test combinations, there's a small chance the safe is still set to the factory default, as an IT guy, it's the equivalent of admin/password on a router.

try these and remember 34 is the last number before the handle can be thrown, but it isn't part of the combination, just part of the dialing order.

dialing order should be Left 4 times, Right 3 times, Left 2 times, Right to 34 and try handle (or it could be reverse Right 4 times, Left 3 Times, Right 2 times, Left to 34, try handle

50-15-80
example: so dial 50-15-80-34 try handle

25-15-30
45-52-50
50-40-50
25-50-25
50-25-50
10-20-30
25-50-75

If none of those work, then you get to sit there for hours and weeks and months learning manipulation, which we will not however be doing play by play of in this thread. I see you started the same thread over at the other forum...

Squelchtone

[bitbuster]

direct entry, or X locks, are those such as sentry , ESP, Saga, older Hall and Alpine to name a few . the locks you pictured from the Mosler manual are not direct entry locks.

Sorry, I got a little ahead of myself and was confusing the Mosler 10 (I said 10 1/2 before) with the 5H. The 5H is not a direct entry lock whereas the Mosler 10 can be considered a direct entry lock as the wheels and driver must be aligned before the fence can be forced up into the gates.
If the dial binds while apply pressure to the handle, then you have a Mosler 10. If no bind, then you have the 5H. Sorry for the confusion.

[Squelchtone]

OP, I'm PMing you a useful diagram, please check your messages.

Squelchtone

[Filer_Computer_Tech]

FCT,

I get it, you're excited about this safe, but slow down a little and back up a few steps, you're getting ahead of yourself and making some assumptions based on reading Matt Blaze's paper which was meant for manipulating the modern group 2 Sargent Greenleaf model 6730 lock which is a world away from that Mosler #10 1/2 lock that bitbuster correctly ID'd as being in your safe. If it's been 6 years already, please don't expect to have that safe open by week's end with our help.

Also, is it your safe to be trying to manipulate? Is whoever is in charge of that school house ok with you working on it? start telling people you're learning safe cracking, and see how quickly secretaries and teachers start grasping their purses close to them whenever you visit their school building. (how do I know? I work as a network admin for a high school district myself, and made the mistake of showing off a few times and telling folks I pick locks and safes, it really changes how people think of you, unfortunately)

Anyway, that Mosler #10-1/2 lock isn't exactly a direct entry lock but you might be able to use the handle to press against the fence and see what you can feel when turning the dial. Your lock will have a 3 number combination, and after you enter the 3 numbers, you then have to turn the dial to 34, and which point you can throw the handle.

Here's the thing though, before we write pages and pages of telling you how to get into this safe, please note, and this is covered in the rules for this sub forum that we dont normally help people get into a safe, we only help you troubleshoot basic problems and figure out the dialing instructions if you ALREADY KNOW the combination.

As fun as this thread is, it is time consuming, and it's almost impossible to share our combined knowledge to someone across the internet, it's like Tom Brady teaching you how to throw a football by him posting instructions, and you reading them on an internet forum, you know what I mean? That touch and feel portion of dialing a safe lock and pulling the handle, it's not as easy as it sounds and takes months and years to master.

Hate to discourage you, but safes were meant to be difficult to get into, even 150 years ago. If you want to dial some test combinations, there's a small chance the safe is still set to the factory default, as an IT guy, it's the equivalent of admin/password on a router.

try these and remember 34 is the last number before the handle can be thrown, but it isn't part of the combination, just part of the dialing order.

dialing order should be Left 4 times, Right 3 times, Left 2 times, Right to 34 and try handle (or it could be reverse Right 4 times, Left 3 Times, Right 2 times, Left to 34, try handle

50-15-80
example: so dial 50-15-80-34 try handle

25-15-30
45-52-50
50-40-50
25-50-25
50-25-50
10-20-30
25-50-75

If none of those work, then you get to sit there for hours and weeks and months learning manipulation, which we will not however be doing play by play of in this thread. I see you started the same thread over at the other forum...

Squelchtone

Heh...I get where you're coming from. I've read this and your PM, and have replied to put your mind at ease.

To publicly address some of your other concerns, I work in the district IT department and am a Network administrator. Which do you think is more vulnerable/valuable - their purses and wallets, or all the info saved on their local device drives, their network drives, the information logged in our content filter, etc.? If I had a desire to profit based on trust extended to me in my position, there are FAR easier ways (at least for me) to go about it. It's the furthest thing from my mind. I have a wife and family (children and grandchildren) to provide for, and aside from considering myself to be a moral and ethical person, I put their needs and interests above all else.

Secondly, as explained to you in the PM, I was introduced to lock manipulation by the head of our former/late school district maintenance dept. who has, unfortunately, since passed away from ALS. He used to unlock desk drawers, file cabinets, etc. that were inadvertently locked by staff who never had the key. By coincidence, before he passed, he was kind enough to begin to instruct me - observed by many in the district, and after he passed, I became the new go-to guy for that job. As far as door locks go, I'm not very good at picking them, but it is of no consequence, because I have a master key for every door/closet/room in the entire district save one. As an aside, I discovered that there is no licence required in my state to practice locksmithing (not that it is my aim to beyond that of a hobbiest), and have since purchased a cheap set of picks, a proper reconfigurable challenge lock, and scavenged whatever old locks I could from the district to practice on. I have discovered that most Master pad locks are a joke, and the BEST cores which are in our door locks have, thus far, proved to be an insurmountable challenge for me, but I do practice whenever I'm able. As I practice, I gain more knowledge and a better "touch", but I'm at the stage where I need to invest in some better/different picks. But, that's another story...

Does the district know that I want to open the safe? Yes - they know it drives me crazy and love to tease me about it. Have they asked me to open it? No - probably because there's no obvious cross-over between keyed locks and combination locks. Have they seen me take photos of and play with the safe? Yes, several times - they encourage it and laugh at me when I get frustrated about not knowing how it works and overly curious about what may be inside. Do they want it open? Yes. As I mentioned, they put an open invitation in the local paper for ANYONE who had a desire to try to come and try for our 100 year celebration. For total transparency, I would be happy to put anyone concerned in touch with the district or school administration via PM.

I don't mean to dismiss any concerns and your cautionary advise is well-received and understandable. The fact of the matter is that this safe sits in an unsecured location - at the bottom of a stairwell at the entrance to the school. Were it not for the nostalgia associated with the safe and the town, I think it would have been discarded long ago. It just sits there - all 800 lbs of it. It's not on display to be admired from a distance. There are no measures in place to stop the students from touching it, kicking it, scraping up against it, etc. That drives me a little crazy. I would love to see the safe preserved/restored and protected - hence my refusal to consider OR recommend Brute Force for entry. In truth, I don't know that they see it as the kind of treasure that I do. I wouldn't be surprised that it sits where it sits simply because it would be a monumental effort to dispose of, AND, it can't be sold easily without a combination.

Hopefully this addresses any concerns members of this community may have. Am I getting ahead of myself, perhaps, but as an IT professional, I know how quickly new posts in a forum lose traction and start to move down the list into obscurity. I've just been trying to gather all the rosebuds I may while I have the attention of those more seasoned and knowledgeable than I. If I have stepped on any toes, I apologize.

Sincerely,

FCT