quicky MK system

[Sinifar]

Okay, so here is another idea. How about a quick MK system for a small factory?

The job consists of 3 locks for the office, the front door, the two doors between the office and the shop - and three shop doors. Now how would you key this so the office key is the master and the shop key won't fit the office?

Simple. These are Schlage generic locks. So ..

Office - 2 4 7 3 9

Plant - 2 4 7 9 3

Because the Schlage MK department reserves 0 - 2 for MK only, you have an exclusive on the first pin. So by having a repeating 2 4 7 you get an exclusive set in this position.

3 - 9 By using this you get a shop key which pushes one pin .090 up and another .090 down, therefore locking the thing.

So your load is 2 - 4 - 7 - (3-.090) (3- .090) where .090 is a 6 master pin. (shop cylinder only) - office cylinders 2 - 4 - 7- 3 - 9.

Deep enough to stop fishing or jiggling -- job done.

Make 6 of each key reinstall , bill and move on.

Sinifar

[RumballSolutions]

Until they call and ask for padlocks for the gates and variable levels for the store rooms/cupboards.

We all know that once businesses get a taste for master keying they invariably want the system expanded.

[Sinifar]

In my experience, 50 years in the trade, small systems tend to stay small and large systems seems to be a working job in progress. Mostly once the original keying meeting is over the system is pretty much set. Padlocks, gates and other auxiliary locks get moved onto the system as needed, locks change as people move around and departments change.

We have several school systems in house, with over 1000 locks in them, I did key them all - and they haven't changed much over the years except moving classrooms as the "houses" move, In schools today the outsides are locked down with the GM only and they use one of the electronic entry systems for security reasons. either you have a credential or you ring the bell and hope that they let you in.

Churches tend to rekey every 5 or 6 years - one key for the whole thing, except for the pastor's office which never changes.

Some businesses which have a lot of cash have a BB Binks lock on the front door, in which one key only unlocks the door and one key only locks the door. The master goes both ways. Don't ask if you don't know how this works. It is a professional lock specialty.

Mostly once I set a system it stays for a long time until it changes again - and here we are back at the job at the top -- just go and do it.

Remember Schlage MK department reserves 0 - 1 - 2 for MK only. So include one someplace in the recurring set. Don't exceed the MACS and keep master keying principals in mind when designing the small systems for you only get one chance at this thing and it had better work right every time every day.

Kwikset reserved the 7 cut for MK work so keep that in mind when designing Kwikset systems as well. There are others like Emhart - Corbin Russwin System 70 where there is a 5.5 cut for the MK only.

Just a few - this isn't for the amateur or experimenter. Master work is a professional job which requires the expertise to do the job right the first time - NO shoe box work allowed here unless you want to get in the middle of a major law suit after something goes missing or somebody gets assaulted.

AS a security professional of long standing and with enough certifications to fill a wall - I can speak from experience which only time and a lot of water over the dam will allow.

Sinifar RL CMCL

[RumballSolutions]

Fair call, my comment was primarily pointing at the fact that once you get a business past the point of dealing with a big bunch of keys and poor key control and convince them to master key, they usually become an ongoing concern. They get used to the convenience and the greater security that improved control can provide. My personal experience is that systems grow. Obviously your mileage may vary.

I'm not going to get in a pissing contest with you about your qualifications or experience, because I never questioned them in the first place. The fact you take such umbrage, speaks more about you than it does about me.

What level of expansion capability, whether to use a restricted broach or a multi broach system is still a discussion to have with the customer at the outset of the job. If they want cheap and quick, that's fine, but there needs to be an understanding of limitations that may impact into the future for any system planned.

[Sinifar]

As a security professional, I still take classes every year - typically two or three which generate CEU points, which are needed to keep up certifications. (CEU - Continuing Education Units) Over the years I have garnered enough certificates to cover most of a wall.

Many of those for "factory" certificates given by reps who conduct classes - just a few - Detex, Kaba Simplex, Schlage for many applications from Primus to the latest electronics, and LSDA, not that that one means much but it does.

As a commercial smith I see lots of work done by people who are either not qualified to do the work, or think they are and really do a bailing wire and band aid job on the thing.

For example, Monday I need to go down and redo a Adams Rite installation. The guy who did it, used electric strike tabs to mount the lock gang, not the correct hollow metal tabs, then put in a narrower face plate, which now swings back and forth in the door and the lock does not work most of time. When I am done it will rock solid in the door.

This is what gets to me - WHY do I have to go back in and rework somebody else's job? It could have done right the first time - if the person who did the job knew what they were doing, had the correct training, the correct parts to do the job, and the knowledge of what the whole thing was going to have to endure as the job aged.

I have jobs I did 30 years ago which are still rock solid.

Yes I am touchy about this - the customer did not get what they paid for and now they have to pay again to have it done right.

If all you have is a correspondence course education, that is fine. It is good start. But know it needs a lot of bench work and tons of field time to really get good at this trade. If all you have is basic "handy man" skills, you do not belong in this trade. There are legal and ethical considerations which get figured in - What if your installation or worse master Key work lets somebody in and there is a loss - worse, an assault? Who pays for that screw up?

Did you specify the correct hardware or the job or just the cheapest? Did you do a correct installation? If electrical did you use the correct type of wire? Yes that can make a difference - Is the job done according to NFPA ?

Do you have the insurance certification? How much do you carry? Many corporations require an insurance cert before they will even allow you on the property. Do you come with all your own safety gear? The list goes on. It is all part of being a commercial locksmith - with 50 years before the mast, and i am 67 - People know I have the stuff to do the job and do it right the first time. I take the time to check and triple check everything before i sign off on the job. which is why a job by us is rock solid.

At my age and experience, I am a bit touchy about people who are not qualified to throw rocks at me doing so. It may be easy on something like the internet to do so but I only come in here to help those who need it and have asked for it - I give out of helping those in the trade expand their knowledge if you do not want my help say so and I can shut up and keep my thoughts and experience to myself.

Having said all that -- I hope you have a good and profitable day!

Cordially,

Sinifar

[Squelchtone]

Sinifar, please stick to the topic at hand, which is MK systems, these personal page long rants are getting old. You don't have to beat the "50 years of experience" drum in every one of your posts and replies. There are plenty of qualified people here, you're not the only one, and everyone starts somewhere, so please put the soap box away, and just try to enjoy talking about locks and the trade, but not always the same rehash about "filling walls with certificates".

We get it man, you know a lot, we respect that and I don't think anyone here contests it, but that doesn't mean someone else here doesn't know stuff too, or has perhaps learned a newer or better way of doing something than the way you learned it years ago.

Thank you and have a good weekend everybody,
Squelchtone

[cledry]

Does this mean he is certifiable, or has he already been certified?

[Sinifar]

Squelchy -

Okay, I get it, just this has been a sore point in the trade for some time. This month in Keynotes there is a long article about a bad panic hardware installation. there have been articles in the Ledger and National Locksmith over the years on the same subject. there are on going debates on Clear Star over this issue -- it just won't go away.

I got hit in the face last January taking down a LCN 4011 closer which had to be changed. whoever did the job did not anchor the screws correctly, and the last (center screw) which was supposed to hold this thing on the door came flying out and the PA shoe hit me in the face. Nothing like a shiner for a few days -- I put in nutserts and that fixed the bad install when i put up the new one.

I was answering the second paragraph of Rumball on this one. We often go off topic on many boards - it happens. I can assure you that it won't happen here again. Just saying ...

As far as newer methods than I learned, that is why I take the on going classes to get up to date on the latest and newest. I am current in my practices and methods.

Certified means I have taken the class, passed the exam if there is one, and have been trained in the correct methods by either factory reps or somebody in the trade teaching the class. Hope that helps..

Will stay on topic in the future, but know it can drift off from time to time and I won't expound on my experience in the future.

Cordially,

Sinifar

[MatrixBlackRock]

Just a few - this isn't for the amateur or experimenter. Master work is a professional job which requires the expertise to do the job right the first time - NO shoe box work allowed here unless you want to get in the middle of a major law suit after something goes missing or somebody gets assaulted.
Sinifar RL CMCL

Ever used Aero Lock?

It's real handy for master keying.

Wayne

[Sinifar]

Matrix -

If you are referring to the systems put out by Aero, yes I have a couple of their books, and use them from time to time when I need an odd ball system. Of course I modify the thing to suit, as this is a published system.

For example - take a 5 pin system and make it into a 6 pin system. You get the idea. Never use a published system as is - somebody might figure out what you are doing and your system is exposed.

Sinifar

[MatrixBlackRock]

Matrix -

If you are referring to the systems put out by Aero, yes I have a couple of their books, and use them from time to time when I need an odd ball system. Of course I modify the thing to suit, as this is a published system.

Sinifar

What I was referring to was their software for MK systems.

http://www.aerolock.com/software.html

Wayne