Best material for picks ?

[WestCoastPicks]

Sorry for double posting but i'm not sure how to edit a post. I watch BosnianBill on YouTube and he recently launched a website with a lot of information about locks and lock picking. I was browsing it and I came across some useful information on what materials to use for making picks. It looks like 301 cold rolled stainless steel is one of the best materials. He also talks about variations of spring steel and titanium. Check it out here - http://www.lock-lab.com/tool-zone/tool-quality/

Cold rolled steels are supposedly softer than other types. Talking to my father (who is a stainless fabricator by trade) he seems to think it's a poor choice. But then again, he's getting old and crotchety so...

[Jacob Morgan]

Cold rolled steels are supposedly softer than other types. Talking to my father (who is a stainless fabricator by trade) he seems to think it's a poor choice. But then again, he's getting old and crotchety so...

Cold rolling mainly gives a smoother, more precise surface finish and it does impart some work hardening. But it may be lower in carbon to begin with to make the cold rolling easier (but if it does have less carbon then it should be a different grade of steel). Hot rolled steel would include things like angle iron, I-beams, strip, plate, etc. They do not have tight tolerances and there is usually some scale that forms a skin on the metal. The important thing is chemical composition--if metal of identical composition is hot rolled or cold rolled and is then heat treated, both final items should have the very same hardness.

As to how hard they are from the rolling mill, it depends. Cold rolling will work harden the metal--putting pressure on non-hot metal makes it harder. But cold rolling is hard on equipment (more horsepower to get the same mill reductions), and a rolling practice could be to anneal hot rolled coils prior to the cold mill pass to make rolling easier, so in theory even cold rolled steel could be softer than hot rolled of the same composition, or it could be harder, or just as hard as hot rolled steel. But again, if one is going to heat treat on their own it does not matter that much. If one is going to heat treat the final picks then one would want full anneal steel if possible, so it would be easier to work with.

I would think that for the thickness of metals that would be useful for picks, especially if it comes in a useful final hardness, that most of the material available would be cold rolled.

There is a pretty good discussion of it here: http://metalsupermarkets.com/blog/difference-between-hot-rolled-steel-and-cold-rolled-steel/

Metals and heat treating and such are interesting to me...but I suppose I'm really more interested on what pick designs one will be making. It seems like there have not been a lot of new designs over the last forty years or so.

[WestCoastPicks]

Cold rolled steels are supposedly softer than other types. Talking to my father (who is a stainless fabricator by trade) he seems to think it's a poor choice. But then again, he's getting old and crotchety so...

Cold rolling mainly gives a smoother, more precise surface finish and it does impart some work hardening. But it may be lower in carbon to begin with to make the cold rolling easier (but if it does have less carbon then it should be a different grade of steel). Hot rolled steel would include things like angle iron, I-beams, strip, plate, etc. They do not have tight tolerances and there is usually some scale that forms a skin on the metal. The important thing is chemical composition--if metal of identical composition is hot rolled or cold rolled and is then heat treated, both final items should have the very same hardness.

As to how hard they are from the rolling mill, it depends. Cold rolling will work harden the metal--putting pressure on non-hot metal makes it harder. But cold rolling is hard on equipment (more horsepower to get the same mill reductions), and a rolling practice could be to anneal hot rolled coils prior to the cold mill pass to make rolling easier, so in theory even cold rolled steel could be softer than hot rolled of the same composition, or it could be harder, or just as hard as hot rolled steel. But again, if one is going to heat treat on their own it does not matter that much. If one is going to heat treat the final picks then one would want full anneal steel if possible, so it would be easier to work with.

I would think that for the thickness of metals that would be useful for picks, especially if it comes in a useful final hardness, that most of the material available would be cold rolled.

There is a pretty good discussion of it here: http://metalsupermarkets.com/blog/difference-between-hot-rolled-steel-and-cold-rolled-steel/

Metals and heat treating and such are interesting to me...but I suppose I'm really more interested on what pick designs one will be making. It seems like there have not been a lot of new designs over the last forty years or so.

But to be honest, the locks haven't changed much. The tools are the same cause we haven't needed anything else yet. The Bogota was the biggest advancement in a while, and not to down raymundo (sp?) but it's just a snake with another hump. So not much of an advancement. In fact people were making triple peak rakes before him. I find a short or medium hook can get me in to pretty much everything I pick.

I think there is still room for improvement with dimple picks, but other than that, pin tum picks probably won't change much till they change the locks.

[kwoswalt99-]

Metals and heat treating and such are interesting to me...but I suppose I'm really more interested on what pick designs one will be making. It seems like there have not been a lot of new designs over the last forty years or so.

But to be honest, the locks haven't changed much. The tools are the same cause we haven't needed anything else yet. The Bogota was the biggest advancement in a while, and not to down raymundo (sp?) but it's just a snake with another hump. So not much of an advancement. In fact people were making triple peak rakes before him. I find a short or medium hook can get me in to pretty much everything I pick.

I think there is still room for improvement with dimple picks, but other than that, pin tum picks probably won't change much till they change the locks.

Raimundo
I tend to go with "simpler" picks over the latest and greatest. All rakes seem pretty similar to me. I honestly do not think there is a certain pick shape yet to be invented that could be so much better it would replace my basic hook. I think more thought needs to go into reexamining the approach itself.

[Jacob Morgan]

Didn't Lishi come up with a new tool to pick and read automotive disc tumbler locks not long ago? Granted that was more than just a pick with a new shape, but it was still something new. I think anyone who makes picks ought to spend some time trying out new things, maybe by accident an advancement could be made.

Regarding pick materials, I know someone who has a Rockwell hardness tester, and I'll see about having them test some material samples (street sweeper bristle, tempered 1095, maybe a generic mid-market pick, etc).

[Joshua904]

Hardness obviously has a lot to do with your choice of metal, but I'd think tensile values would matter as much if not more. If it doesn't flex and come back to shape, then it would either flex and stay (soft metal) or flex and snap (hard metal).

[WestCoastPicks]

Didn't Lishi come up with a new tool to pick and read automotive disc tumbler locks not long ago? Granted that was more than just a pick with a new shape, but it was still something new. I think anyone who makes picks ought to spend some time trying out new things, maybe by accident an advancement could be made.

Regarding pick materials, I know someone who has a Rockwell hardness tester, and I'll see about having them test some material samples (street sweeper bristle, tempered 1095, maybe a generic mid-market pick, etc).

Hardness is only a very small part of what you should be looking for in a metal for picks. I would hands down take a pick that would bend over a pick that would break. The last thing I need is a small chunk of hard steel broken off in a lock. A hardness high enough that it doesn't bend easily, but also won't break. And will retain it's shape after bending.

What we need might not actually exist yet. We aren't the only ones waiting for a metal that has all the pros and none of the cons.

[Joshua904]

I confused tensile strength with "toughness" earlier. Tensile strength measures a metals ability to withstand being stretched before deforming. Toughness deals with its ability to withstand energy before fracturing. High carbon steel would have high hardness, but low toughness.

Yeah.. I've been searching on and off for the past week or so for a material to custom make some picks. So far everything I've scavenged from work hasn't turned out the best... Most of it has been harder material. The best I've managed so far has been from steel banding straps, but it doesn't take long for you to see a noticeable bend in the shaft.. Like heavy handing a cheap commercial pick

[WestCoastPicks]

I confused tensile strength with "toughness" earlier. Tensile strength measures a metals ability to withstand being stretched before deforming. Toughness deals with its ability to withstand energy before fracturing. High carbon steel would have high hardness, but low toughness.

Yeah.. I've been searching on and off for the past week or so for a material to custom make some picks. So far everything I've scavenged from work hasn't turned out the best... Most of it has been harder material. The best I've managed so far has been from steel banding straps, but it doesn't take long for you to see a noticeable bend in the shaft.. Like heavy handing a cheap commercial pick

I still find it hard to compare to wiper inserts. Maybe it's just the wiper inserts I get (doubt it) but they are just as good, if not better than sparrows and Almost as good as Peterson. I can file them in to any pick I need and they are pretty much free.

If I was to deviate from wiper inserts I would stay with stainless.

[mahranch]

The Bogota was the biggest advancement in a while, and not to down raymundo (sp?) but it's just a snake with another hump. So not much of an advacemet. In fact people were making triple peak rakes before him. I find a short or medium hook can get me in to pretty much everything I pick.

I actually have a Bogota that I got at a trade show about 15 or so years ago. It perfectly mirrors the one I got from serepick. It's handmade but still...

[kwoswalt99-]

The Bogota was the biggest advancement in a while, and not to down raymundo (sp?) but it's just a snake with another hump. So not much of an advacemet. In fact people were making triple peak rakes before him. I find a short or medium hook can get me in to pretty much everything I pick.

I actually have a Bogota that I got at a trade show about 15 or so years ago. It perfectly mirrors the one I got from serepick. It's handmade but still...

Made by Raimundo?

[Jacob Morgan]

Hardness is only a very small part of what you should be looking for in a metal for picks. I would hands down take a pick that would bend over a pick that would break. The last thing I need is a small chunk of hard steel broken off in a lock. A hardness high enough that it doesn't bend easily, but also won't break. And will retain it's shape after bending.

What we need might not actually exist yet. We aren't the only ones waiting for a metal that has all the pros and none of the cons.

As was stated in a prior post, any metal can be well characterized by chemical composition (which would indicate the alloy) and hardness (which would indicate the heat treatment). Checking the hardness is fairly easy, checking the chemistry would require a mass spectrometer and that would take someone who can visit a university materials science lab. Testing hardness will be useful in reverse engineering pick materials. I'm trying to find some sweeper blades I have and then I'll send off a package of materials to the person I know who has a tester. Knowing at least the hardness is better than knowing nothing.

I'm sure that perfectly good materials do exist for picks, and any minimal improvement on properties would hardly justify arranging for a steel mill to create a new alloy. The OP was about what metal would be good if one wanted to manufacture a run of picks.

[WestCoastPicks]

Hardness is only a very small part of what you should be looking for in a metal for picks. I would hands down take a pick that would bend over a pick that would break. The last thing I need is a small chunk of hard steel broken off in a lock. A hardness high enough that it doesn't bend easily, but also won't break. And will retain it's shape after bending.

What we need might not actually exist yet. We aren't the only ones waiting for a metal that has all the pros and none of the cons.

As was stated in a prior post, any metal can be well characterized by chemical composition (which would indicate the alloy) and hardness (which would indicate the heat treatment). Checking the hardness is fairly easy, checking the chemistry would require a mass spectrometer and that would take someone who can visit a university materials science lab. Testing hardness will be useful in reverse engineering pick materials. I'm trying to find some sweeper blades I have and then I'll send off a package of materials to the person I know who has a tester. Knowing at least the hardness is better than knowing nothing.

I'm sure that perfectly good materials do exist for picks, and any minimal improvement on properties would hardly justify arranging for a steel mill to create a new alloy. The OP was about what metal would be good if one wanted to manufacture a run of picks.

Yeah I was getting lost in the sub threads lol. A 300 or 400 series cold rolled stainless looks to be the standard. I would probably stay in that area. If I was to deviate from the standard it would be toward exotic stuff like ti.

[Squelchtone]

I think you guys are over thinking this.. no offense, but do any of you have a metallurgy degree? )(heh, Jacob actually might) but I see a lot of what feels like arm chair experting going on... I'm sure we can compare 301 stainless vs 439 stainless, yadda yadda, etc, etc, all day long, but that just seems like a rabbit hole we're going down when it's not needed.

Remember the old saying KISS, keep it simple stupid. If a normal run of the mill stainless steel works for picks just fine, why would you go on some quest for some special new alloy that would make a better pick? It's not an aerospace part that requires certain characteristics and 3 engineers to sign off on it, and if someone's picks are bending, then they're probably being too heavy handed, but it sure is more convenient to blame the metal.

just my 2 cents,
Squelchtone


comparison of stainless steel grades and their properties for anyone interested: http://www.stainlesssales.com/stainless ... rades.html

[WestCoastPicks]

So don't talk about things your not an expert on?
That would leave us all with nothing to say.

Dude. No offence, but we are having a fun productive conversation. I guess shut down the thread if you want. You have the power.