How exactly do you copy keys?

[Squelchtone]

Just FYI, the ASSA FAB tolerances specification is:
cut position relative to the key stop: ± 30 µm (0.0012 ")
cut depth (or better, key height in the cut): +0 - 50 µm (0.002")
cut angle: -0 +3º
cut bottom width: -0 +0.1 mm (0.004")

tomasfuk.. I think there is a miscommunication.. so let me try to explain. jimu57 is new to lock stuff as of December and from his other posts I get the sense he only knows of ASSA as in actual locks stamped ASSA (such as the ASSA oval half cylinders that he has a bunch of), I have a feeling he does not know ASSA Abloy Group owns 42+/- other lock and door hardware companies some of which are the ones you mentioned, or the lock company FAB.. When you tell him "ASSA FAB" has such and such cut specifications, he may not know what you mean by ASSA FAB.

Just to be clear, I don't think ASSA FAB calls themselves ASSA FAB, they just say FAB, with ASSA Abloy logo under the FAB logo. They are an ASSA Abloy Group company. If I bought a FAB cylinder on ebay, I wouldn't tell my locksport buddies that I got an ASSA FAB euro cylinder, I would just say I got a FAB euro cylinder and they would all know what I meant, and if I bought an ASSA euro cylinder, they wouldn't ask me which ASSA Abloy group company cylinder I got, they would know I got an ASSA cylinder, probably a 600, since if I got an ASSA Twin, I would have made it specific when telling them.

Just as Medeco isnt called ASSA Medeco, or ASSA Yale, each lock company is just called Medeco or Yale. Nobody calls Schlage by saying Ingersoll Rand Schlage. So like I said 2 or 3 replies before this, I really believe that jimu57 is talking about actual ASSA model locks, not all ASSA Abloy Group product lines or child companies such as ASSA, Abloy, Medeco, Mul-t-Lock, Yale, FAB, etc,etc. I'm sure each of those companies have their own key cut tolerance specifications and they will vary from brand to brand and from model to model.

I've been reading this thread since it started, and I have to say that I think it's great that there are so many interesting facets to this hobby and everyone has their own specific interest, but this obsession about key cut tolerances and talking about them and measuring them down to the micro meter seems a little bit.. overly obsessive. I don't even think the engineers at the lock factory care *this* much about the tolerances of code cutting or duplicating each key, so that there are no striations, and that the keys are cut or copied so well every time that you can bring it in under an scanning electron microscope and measure everything down to the molecular level and it matches exactly every time to your demanding specifications. I think it's unfair that you hold your local locksmith to that sort of standard and it also seems petty to go visit shops in your area and have them make copies of keys and stand there listening to the machine working just so you can go home and measure the keys and prove how bad of a job the local locksmith did or how much his machine is out of calibration.

There are plenty of locksmiths out there who do an average or poor quality job, and there are plenty of good ones as well. It's always unfortunate when you get a key copied and then bring it home and it doesn't work or doesn't work smoothly, I know that would frustrate me very much as well, but it seems that experience has now made you go on a personal crusade about key copying tolerances. If those local locksmiths are not doing as nice of a job as you think you do yourself at home, then it may be more appropriate to talk to FAB and have them offer better training to the locksmiths that sell their locks in your area. or do you call and blame Silca for not making machines or cutting wheels within spec of all the lock brands the locksmith makes keys for every day? Let me just say one thing, if you call FAB and yell at them that the local locksmith is cutting keys a few microns out of spec, they will probably think you are crazy for caring to that level.

I get where you're coming from, but remember, locks are simple machines, but they are not finely tuned Swiss watches or CNC made aerospace parts, nor do they need to be. If I insert a key and it turns smoothly and the lock operates, then that's great. There should be no need to go further and measure the key cuts under a microscope or make sure the cut surface has a mirror finish.

Squelchtone

[jimu57]

Nice writeup squelchtone. Yes I am new to locks. I must apologize up front if I have written some things that are not correct or possibly doesnt make sense. I was a mechanical engineer until I had a bad stroke in 2008. This past december I got interested in locks and picking again. At the time I didnt know bitting from binder. The first security cylinder I got was an oval ASSA cylinder. I did a lot of research on ASSA as well as many other brands. I have some Rukos, Sargent ASSA Abloy, ASSA SCD, Twin, etc. I know that ASSA owns a lot of different brands. One thing I dont know is the stuff you guys know from your years in working with locks. That is why I joined this forum. To learn. There is a wealth of knowledge here. I try to contribute if I have information that I have picked up on. Over the past 6 months I have learned that its hard to duplicate a key for the ASSA 600 cylinder on a MicroMetric that is consistent. Like squelchtone said, ASSA locks are like a small machine. I appreciate all the feedback on this thread. I hope to learn from you guys. I am NOT a know-it-all guy. I am the first to admit that I know near nothing. Locks is a new hobby for my. It helps to exercise my brain and hands as well. I love constructive criticism. That is a great way to learn. So, thanks to everyone for being patient with me. I won't be a pest or pain in the ass. I hope to see more and more great info from everyone here.

jimu57

[tomasfuk]

Squelchtone, you say I'm on a personal crusade and you think I'm crazy.
My education is in exact sciences (mathematics, physics) where accuracy is a keystone. I like precise sophisticated things like Swiss watches and some locks are not so far away from them. The accuracy in technical branches is my obsession since youth. I'm a perfectionist there.

Keys made far off factory specification may work fine but they cause faster wearing of the lock, thus they reduce its lifetime. That's not good, but what is even worse, it reduces lock's security. Is it really so crazy wishing to have the keys within the factory specification? I tried to show here that it's accessible even with a humble equipment.

Maybe it's crazy. All people wishing the things to be better are fools, aren't they? I hope I don't hurt anybody with it.
Anyway, if it interferes here so much, I promise not to mention the keys precision here anymore, not even being tortured

[pcm81]

I realize that this thread is over a year old.

As a crazy engineer, working for an aerospace company, totally obsessed with well designed and built mechanisms; i just want to add the following:
Tolerances as well as bevels exist for a reason. Ever notice how the top edge of some pins is bevelled? Or how the plug is smaller than the cylinder by few extra thousandths of an inch than it actually has to be? All those "flaws" are there to eat up the large tolerances allowed on low security locks, in turn permitting a lock smith to get away with using "average quality" duplicator or code cutter to make these low security keys. Higher security locks raise the bar by tighter internal tolerances and removing the "tolerance forgiveness mechanisms", but in turn this limits locksmiths to using high quality equipment. At the end of the day, how accurate is accurate enough? It depends on the work you intend to do and locks you intend to work with.

[Mighty]

Interesting thread. I've gotten many bad keys cut at big chain hardware stores over the years. I believe the biggest cause of this that the untrained employees spend waaay too long deburring the key after they cut it. They'll stick it under the brush over and over trying to get something perfect, when it only needed a second to clean it up. Get home to find the key doesn't work and when I compare them (which I should have done at the store), I've had parts almost a mm too low. Go back, get them cut again on the same machine, tell them to just deburr it a little bit, and they work perfectly.

[cledry]

OK, let's jimu57 say what ASSA keys need to be so precise in his opinion.

ASSA manufacturing processes work to close fits and tight tolerances. It's possible to hand cut a key for an ASSA cyclinder. I have done it myself. I do not have the dimensional tolerances nor geometric tolerancing specs that ASSA uses in their manufacture. I doubt if that is made public. But we all know that ASSA does manufacture to more strict requirements than US lock manufacturers.

Tolerances on key depth and spacing IS made available by ASSA. Each position is measured from the shoulder and has a tolerance spec of +.0008"/-.0012". Instead of incremental spacing (from cut to cut), ASSA references every cut from the shoulder, therefore the tolerances do not accumulate. The depth of each cut (measured from the bottom of the blade) has a tolerance of +.0000"/-.0016".

ASSA makes a secure lock because of their design and because of close fit and tight tolerances. As I said, yes you can make a key that works. But to produce a key that time after time works properly in any cylinder, it takes a machine that can hold the tolerance requirement. Some first cut keys I had were out of spec. I measured them all and cut depths were out of spec anywhere from .002" to .005". I have a lot of 600 series cylinders and checked keys with all of them. The out of spec keys would work with some but not all. When I got new cut keys there were in spec and ALL cylinders would work with each and every key. I think the tolerancing thing goes back to interchangeble parts defined in early industrial revolution.

Tolerances in key cutting is there for a purpose. You may make a key to fit ONE lock, but if you do not have the equipment to hold the spec called out by the manufacturer, and need to cut a lot of keys, you are looking at wasting a lot of blanks and time.

Hope that helped.

jimu57

I am curious as to which key machine you are using?