S&G Lock - problem?

[GregP]

I just purchased an old used safe with an S&G 3-number combination lock on it this past weekend. It is unlocked (luckily!) and the previous owner gave me the combination. It has been unused for a few years, and was stored in a building in the desert, so it has been subjected to 100+ degree heat in the summers (lubricant problem?). It appears to be in pristine condition, both inside and out. The dial spins smoothly in each direction.

I have taken a few photos of the lock, from the inside and outside (below). I don't see a model number anywhere, just what appears to be a serial number. Anyone know what model this is offhand?

The problem I'm having is that the middle number is shifting upwards a bit. For instance, the combination the previous owner gave me that worked is XX-40-YY. From there over the course of a few days is shifted to XX-43-YY and yesterday and today it is XX-45-YY. The 40 and 43 no longer work. It seems to have stabilized there, at least for the time being. It is very repeatable, I can consistently open it with the XX-45-YY combination, but I am worried that it may keep shifting and lock me out.

Is this a known problem with these locks? Any thoughts as to what may be going on to cause this?

Thanks!

[Squelchtone]

[EDIT: Thread moved from This Old Lock (key operated house locks) to This Old Safe (safes and combination safe locks)]

Thats a well made Series 6700 lock.

Can you tell us the exact way you are dialimg it in order to unlock it? Is it 4L 3R 2L then 1R till bolt retracts? Or are you dialing 4R 3L 2R then 1L till the bolt retracts?

You can take the cover off and then dial each number of the combination while watching the cut out (called a gate) on each wheel line up at around 1 oclock when looking at the wheels with the back cover removed. Or around 3 to 4 oclock if the locks bolt is facing down like in your photo. Then as each wheel lines up under the fence (a square shaped rod that floats over the 3 wheels and is attached to the lever arm) then peek at the dial and see what number the dial is on.

Others wiser than me will have to let you know if the wheels in that model can drift over time, perhaps the last owner was dialing it to the wrong number that was close enough to work but as you are finding out there is some room for slop or error.

Squelchtone

[billdeserthills]

Your lock is an older model S&G 6730, it sounds like the middle wheel is slipping, which can happen on an old, worn lock.
Your best bet is to either replace it yourself, or pay a locksmith to replace it. One nice thing about replacement is now you
can upgrade to a new digital battery powered lock if you wish to, as your lock does fit in a standard footprint.

Under no circumstances should you close and lock this safe, until your lock is replaced, in fact if this were my safe I would lock the door open, just to keep out of trouble

[GregP]

Squelchtone: I'm doing it L-R-L and then a final R to open. I took it apart and looked inside, #45 is where it is ending up. I tried forcing it to slip and can't make it move in either direction. It does appear to start turning the wheel at #40 on the dial, but when it spins fully around it ends up at #45. I wonder if it is the opposite of what I was thinking - instead of slipping now, perhaps it was sticking previously and this is where it really wants to be?

BillDesertHills: That's what I was afraid of. Can you recommend a quality digital lock that would be a drop-in replacement that I can install myself? There aren't any locksmiths down here. I am mechanically inclined with everything from telescopes to computers, just haven't taken apart a lock before. If it is just a simple replacement I'm sure I can handle it, I have a full toolbox.

Any idea how old my 6730 might be? Just curious...

Thanks,
Greg

[Squelchtone]

70's or 80's

[GregP]

Squelchtone:

Hey! You nailed it - and I didn't even realize it at the time!

You had asked if I used R-L-R or a L-R-L dialing, and I never even considered that you could actually do either one. The only difference is (on my lock, anyway) that the middle number is 40 if you go R-L-R and 46 if you go L-R-L. The other two numbers stay the same.

So sometime between my getting the combination (he just wrote down the three numbers, he never specified which way to start) and playing with it a few days later when I got the safe home I must have reversed the order in my head, which explains why when I saw it go from 40 to 46 I thought something was slipping, never even thinking that you can reverse the order if you change the middle number.

I'll stick with the L-R-L unless you know of any reason not to, it is an easier sequence for me to remember.

Thanks a ton,
Greg

[Squelchtone]

Bill may be right that you have some slippage, and now Im wondering if reversing the dialing should give you that big of a change, or if you have a stuck fly or something, but to check the movable fly, you would have to take your wheelpack apart. Not a difficult task, and S&G has a nice troubleshooting guide online including great break down photos, and you can also find tear down and service photos here, Gwiens2001 had a nice write up in this sub forum with plenty of pics.

You could dial the combo LRL (the perferred way on this lock model) some high number like 50 times with the safe door open and if lock works great then I'd lean towards trusting it in every day use.

Gotta talk to a guy who is a master manipulator to see if reversing direction will be 6 numbers wide.. catch ya tomorrow.

[edit: found an interesting post Gwiens2001 wrote on another forum about Rotational Conversion while safe cracking, it may or may not apply to whats happening with your lock but worth a read.
https://www.keypicking.com/viewtopic.php?f=100&t=8674

Glad it's working for you at the moment,
Squelchtone

[Squelchtone]

check out this S&G 6730 lock break down and explanation by Gwiens2001: viewtopic.php?f=36&t=62460

Look at the part that shows the wheelpack being taken apart and showing the fly(s) and the part about the change key hole on each wheel being locked or unlocked and compare those pics to the state of your wheel's change key holes on each wheel to make sure one isn't unlocked which would cause interesting side effects when dialing.

Enjoy that thread, it's awesome!
Squelchtone

[billdeserthills]

I prefer to dial a possible faulty lock 6 to 10 times, if it opens on every try out of 10, then I keep using it
otherwise if it fails I will replace it, or at least reset to a new combination and then try it another 6-10 times

As for a replacement combo lock, I have used: Secureram, LG Basic, kaba ilco, S&G's 6120

Changing out the lock is easy, remove the back cover, and pull out the spline key (I use a side cutter, like a wire cutter)
Unscrew the dial, unscrew the dial ring and remove the 4 screws that hold in the old lock--The new lock will have installation
instructions

[GregP]

Thanks again, guys!

Between my wife & I we opened it 50-60 times today, and aside from the few normal misdials (we're both new to this!), it opened consistently, so we're comfortable with it.

While I was opening it I tested a little bit on each side of each number, and found that there is a consistent 1-1/2 "slop" on each number (say from 45 to 46-1/2) that will work, and I will monitor that for a while to make sure that it doesn't shift.

I think it's time to call it good and actually using it. Bill, thanks for the info on the electric replacements, we may still do that, but at least we won't be in a big rush now.

I did get a reply back from S&G on the model number today (I sent them a question before I found this forum) and they "think" it is a 6741?

I'll let you know if anything changes,
Greg

[Squelchtone]

Thanks again, guys!

Between my wife & I we opened it 50-60 times today, and aside from the few normal misdials (we're both new to this!), it opened consistently, so we're comfortable with it.

While I was opening it I tested a little bit on each side of each number, and found that there is a consistent 1-1/2 "slop" on each number (say from 45 to 46-1/2) that will work, and I will monitor that for a while to make sure that it doesn't shift.

I think it's time to call it good and actually using it. Bill, thanks for the info on the electric replacements, we may still do that, but at least we won't be in a big rush now.

I did get a reply back from S&G on the model number today (I sent them a question before I found this forum) and they "think" it is a 6741?

I'll let you know if anything changes,
Greg

Glad to hear you are both learning how to dial it, and that it is working. If it is a 6741 that lock was made for the gun safe market and is more forgiving to those who dial infrequently compared to someone who opens a cash safe at a store every day and uses the 6730 which has to be dialed much closer to the combination. Its nice that S&G got back to you, they're a great bunch of folks.

Happy Thanksgiving!
Squelchtone

[GregP]

Update!

I spoke too soon, we were getting more of what I thought were mis-dials. So I got brave and took the lock off and took it apart for cleaning. Spinning the wheels independently with it open you could feel the drag caused by dirt, debris, old grease, whatever.

After cleaning everything and putting just a touch of white lithium grease on it, then wiping it all off as well as I could and putting it back together, it works like a charm.

The interesting thing is that after doing that the middle number went from 46 to 38! That's how much drag was on it due to the gunk. I'm just amazed how consistent it was with the dirt on it. And the way I know it went back together correctly is that in "reverse dialing" (R_L_R) the numbers stayed the same!!! And now all three of the reverse dialing numbers are now within a digit of the "forward dialing" (L-R-L) numbers.

So I will throw out the huge benefit of people knowing the "reverse dialing" numbers for their lock. In case it does have a problem due to any cause, there is a possibility that dialing it in reverse will get the safe open. And if people see that the numbers are very different between forward and reverse, that is a sure sign that it needs to be cleaned.

My only question after all this, why is there a specific position to put in the spline key? Aimed at VU, VD, etc?
I put it in correctly (VD) but it tightens up just a little nicer one spline over, and I was curious about it.

Thanks for all your help on this, I'm now even happier and more comfortable with my safe and lock!
Greg

[cledry]

You shouldn't use white lithium on the wheel pack. You are asking for trouble down the line. I would remove all of that and reassemble.

[GregP]

Jim:

What I did was to put it on and then wipe it off. I can't get the recommended grease down here (the lock and I are in Mexico right now) but the next time I go north of the border I'll get some, I promise!

Do you know anyone who sells AeroShell 22 in small quantities, just enough to do one lock a few times? All I could find were large 14 oz. containers.

Thanks,
Greg

[dtsh]

Update!
So I will throw out the huge benefit of people knowing the "reverse dialing" numbers for their lock. In case it does have a problem due to any cause, there is a possibility that dialing it in reverse will get the safe open. And if people see that the numbers are very different between forward and reverse, that is a sure sign that it needs to be cleaned.

Keep in mind this only counts on locks with flys; try it with drive pins and your wheels will lead in the direction of travel.