Bump key is not a 999 key?

[jimu57]

The subject, bump key is not a 999 key is something I read about bump keys but I cannot remember where. I have looked on this area of the forum but have not found what I have a question about.

On a popular site that sells bump keys, the first photo below is from their web site. The crest of the cut at the tip is taller than the others. Seems to me that it would not operate properly and that all crests of the key need to be the same height.

The second photo is 3 keys that I cut on a Framon. Key A is cut just like in the first photo. By definition, as I understand, this is a 999 key. All cuts to the maximum depth. Key B has the crest at the tip cut to the same height as all others. The tip has a step in it due to cutting the first crest shorter. Key C is similar to B except it has been trimmed to create the typical slope on all normal keys but has left the first crest at the low height. This makes the overall key a little shorter that the first 2.

Is a true bump key NOT a 999 key? Do all crests need to be the same height? Is the trimmed length in key C ok? Is the step at the tip in key B ok?

I also have read that the root of the cut should be cut deeper. The depth of the deepest cut should be cut say .010" deeper than spec. Makes sense to me since the key's purpose is to quickly lift the pins and its possible that the root at spec could cause the "9" pin to jump past the shear line since its there anyway.

Just some thoughts. Constructive criticism or comments is welcome.

jimu57

[Squelchtone]

I dont know enough history and lore of 999 keys but I remember something with Yale keys being 999 or that a Schlage bump key was called a 999 because that's the deepest cut on a Schlage. It would seem that a Kwikset key can be a bump key but not a 999 key because the deepest cuts on a Kwikset are 6.

This is a good topic to research, hopefully someone here is more of a bump key expert.

Squelchtone

[jimu57]

I think 999 is a nickname for keys with all cuts to the maximum depth. True, kwikset would technically be a 666 key (antichrist). And 999 is the Yale Y1 blank. Terminology and nicknames for stuff gets confusing

[Squelchtone]

I think 999 is a nickname for keys with all cuts to the maximum depth. True, kwikset would technically be a 666 key (antichrist). And 999 is the Yale Y1 blank. Terminology and nicknames for stuff gets confusing

In reading TOOOL's 2005 Lock Bumping pdf, it says and I'm paraphrasing, that bump keys, sometimes called 999 keys because they are cut to the maximum (9) depth.

*Yale Y1 also happens to have 0-9 possible depths.

As for the different tips being cut differently and if that made a real bump key there was a thread here last year that got pretty heated with differing opinions. I dont remember the members who were contributing to the post but I recall lots of pictures and links to various sellers including a set that Sparrows was selling what a member claimed were not really bump keys.

You may find that thread helpful with figuring out which tip cuts make the most effective bump key. I dont think that the tip shape makes it a 999 key or not a 999 key though based on what I have read.

What are your thoughts?

Squelchtone

[jimu57]

Need to read more posts. Not sure yet.

Jim

[Squelchtone]

As to the question about the tip in the black and white photo.. the large tip would already be deep in the lock and if you do not use the 1 cut pull out method of bumping then it wouldn't get in the way, but then bumping the key will immediately make the shoulder hit the plug face and I'm not sure if enough force would transfer from the ramps hitting the bottom corners of the key pins to make them bounce up.

I personally like key B in your photo, I dont like sharply cut bump keys such as C, with B being shaved down nice and low and the cut to cut peaks being rouned it lets the key do its job of hitting pins but not having the sharp peaks catching inside the plug as someone bumps and pulls out 1 click and bumps again.

I'll have to sleep on this and think about it some more. Interesting topic, thanks for posting it.

Squelchtone

[RedE]

jimu57,

It looks like your using the standard FC8445 cutting wheel with your Framon. If you have the Kwikset spec FC9090 cutter, the wider angle and larger root width of this wheel will make that peak on the front of the key much smaller than it is now. And if the lock is using blunt-tipped Kwikset pins, they will mesh with the key better too!

It looks like your keys are cut to all 6s right? Ever considered cutting the keys to 7s? I've made some like that just in case I find myself with a cylinder that has one or more 7 depths.

And I know it's already been said but when I think of 999, the first thing that pops in my head is a 5pin Yale E1R. I suppose it's difficult for me to accept that its terminology for a bump key when I service Corbin X pre system 70, Sargent, and Best A4 (and none them have a 9 as their deepest cut.) It would be interesting to know where the terminology originally came from...

[jimu57]

The terminology of 999 confused me too. The other issue is the first photo of a kwikset bump key that has a high tip. These are being sold by a bump key site. Not all of their keys turn out like this one but some others than the Kwikset do. I have a few bump keys from them that I bought over a year ago. I was trying to reproduce theirs and just happened to choose Kwikset because of the high tip. I agree with using a different cutter and cutting to 7 depth. Going to try that. Thanks for the info.

Jim

[Squelchtone]

using some google fu, the earliest time I can spot for using a 999 key is an article from 2000 about the LA police having a 999 key which opened all police stations in Los Angeles.. clearly not a bump key though.

http://www.nytimes.com/2000/10/01/magaz ... d-cop.html

The TOOOL.NL bumping paper from 2003 is the next instance of the term 999 key. perhaps it was called that in mainland Europe or in the UK before that name spread stateside.

Here is a Feb 1, 2001 article on a locksmith business website about basics of lockpicking and locksmithing, it mentioned 999 keys because they are cut the a depth of 999.
http://www.locksmithtrainingmerseyside. ... stions.asp

[Robotnik]

As Squelchtone said, the LAPD 999 key is definitely not a key cut to 9's. This is a blind code for the Dept. master.

[dhk42]

Deviant Ollam's "Keys to the Kingdom" has a chapter on bumping which is pretty good and as it happens I read it last night.

He says the hump in A is bad and that a Kwickset bump key is really a 666 (or 777) key and as others have said the 999 name comes from they keys where 999 actually is the maximum depth.

David

[jimu57]

I took RedE's advice. I cut another key that is cut to the 7 depth. Made a second one with the shoulder cut back and used a soft silicone pad for the spring action when "machine gunning" with a bump hammer. I dont actually use a commercial bump hammer. I use a piece of oak or a handle cut off a small hammer like a tack hammer.

Key D is the key cut to depth 7. Key E is the one with the shoulder cut back.

I tried both keys on 2 different Kwikset locks. One is a deadbolt and the other is an entrance lever. They are pinned different. Not sure of the bitting.
After practicing with key D a few times, I counted how many times I opened the cylinder with a single strike. 9 out of 10 average.

Key E, with the silicone pad, actually gives something to grip when tensioning the key instead of holding the bow. The pad pulls it back about 2 notches. The softness and springiness of the silicone seems to work very too. Dont have to keep pulling the key back.

Going to try with a high-low pinned cylinder and also with spool drivers.

[RedE]

Glad to know that the deeper-cut keys are working well for you too. Since you seem to have a good bumping technique, have you ever tried out your skills on a more refined lock like an Arrow or Sargent? And would you mind sharing where you got the silicone grommets from? They definitely look like something worth trying out.

[jimu57]

Hi again RedE. The silicone pads that I use are cut from a nasal pillow used with a CPAP. I have sleep apnea. I change nasal pillows every 2 weeks. There are 2 tabs that I cut off of them for these pads. I just started doing that but will have some in a few weeks. I can send you a few it you like. Just PM me your address.

I havent tried others locks yet. I have quite an assortment tho. I sell practice locks with pinning kits on Ebay. I even have some ASSA practice locks. The only other lock that I have tried bumping is the oval ASSA 600. A 6 pin cylinder that I pinned with ASSA bottom pins and security pins in all chambers. I was able to hand cut a bump for it about a year ago. It worked pretty well. Had to use the same silicone pads to get that machine gun effect. Takes quite a few whacks and altering the torque on the key to open it.

I have some 5 pin oval RUKO cylinders that I converting to practice locks with ASSA pins. I have maybe 80 or so cut RUKO keys for these cylinders. I have already cut a bump key. Since I didnt have RUKO pinning specs, I had to do a dimensional layout to determine possible maximum cut. Going to possibly list these on Ebay with a working key and bump key for the locksport guys.

I know I have a ways to go on bumping but I have a pile of various cylinders. I guess the next step is Schlage, Yale, Sargent, Arrow. And I have quite a few Corbins with different keyways.

Going to use your suggestion on these by cutting past the max depth by .015" or so. Seems to work on Kwikset at least.

jim

[RedE]

Hi again RedE. The silicone pads that I use are cut from a nasal pillow used with a CPAP. I have sleep apnea. I change nasal pillows every 2 weeks. There are 2 tabs that I cut off of them for these pads. I just started doing that but will have some in a few weeks. I can send you a few it you like. Just PM me your address.

I havent tried others locks yet. I have quite an assortment tho. I sell practice locks with pinning kits on Ebay. I even have some ASSA practice locks. The only other lock that I have tried bumping is the oval ASSA 600. A 6 pin cylinder that I pinned with ASSA bottom pins and security pins in all chambers. I was able to hand cut a bump for it about a year ago. It worked pretty well. Had to use the same silicone pads to get that machine gun effect. Takes quite a few whacks and altering the torque on the key to open it.

I have some 5 pin oval RUKO cylinders that I converting to practice locks with ASSA pins. I have maybe 80 or so cut RUKO keys for these cylinders. I have already cut a bump key. Since I didnt have RUKO pinning specs, I had to do a dimensional layout to determine possible maximum cut. Going to possibly list these on Ebay with a working key and bump key for the locksport guys.

I know I have a ways to go on bumping but I have a pile of various cylinders. I guess the next step is Schlage, Yale, Sargent, Arrow. And I have quite a few Corbins with different keyways.

Going to use your suggestion on these by cutting past the max depth by .015" or so. Seems to work on Kwikset at least.

jim

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