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Does this cross a line? re:locksport WTF

Picked all the easy locks and want to step up your game? Further your lock picking techniques, exchange pro tips, videos, lessons, and develop your skills here.

Re: Does this cross a line? re:locksport WTF

Postby Shackle Jackal » 2 Mar 2017 18:19

Ok but what about a fix ? I was thinking about cutting the cap into four or five pieces and JB welding it as well as crimping it down.
Its a very dangerous thing, to know what your doing. - Murderface
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Re: Does this cross a line? re:locksport WTF

Postby dhk42 » 2 Mar 2017 22:05

Shackle Jackal wrote:Ok but what about a fix ? I was thinking about cutting the cap into four or five pieces and JB welding it as well as crimping it down.


I was thinking you could put a pin through the cap around pin 2, but splitting the cap even in two would probably work pretty well since the tool can't get to the back pins very easily. Although picking the two or three remaining pins wouldn't be very hard.

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Re: Does this cross a line? re:locksport WTF

Postby Jacob Morgan » 2 Mar 2017 22:46

It would be better to make it such that the locks could be re-keyed if need be. Could wire down the covers versus gluing them down. Played around with the Kwikset locks I have in the workshop just now and it was possible to wrap wire around them such that it would be difficult to force the spring covers off. Had to get creative with one of them, an older dead bolt. Not enough clearance to wrap wire all the way around it and reassemble the lock, so drilled a couple of holes between the shell and where the mounting bolts go. The wire went through the holes and secure the cover.

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There are too many variations of these locks to generalize a one size fits all solution, looking at the re-keying manuals http://www.kwikset.com/Libraries/Literature/Rekeying_Manual.sflb.ashx and http://consumer.schlage.com/project%20documents/mr-1191.pdf there are a variety of configurations. With minimal ingenuity it should be possible to secure the cover. The pop-in door knob inserts have little clearance, maybe a few wraps with aluminum tape (like for taping exhaust vents) would do the trick if wire was too bulky. If the companies involved wanted to fix this with little expense and no change to their tooling, they would just need to include an injection molded plastic filler block that would go between the cover and the body of the lock so that there would be no where for the spring cover to go. Craft stores sell "Sculpy" (an oven-hardening modeling plastic) that would work if someone wanted to go that route.

But at some point one can not make a secure lock from a cheap lock now matter how much wire, tape, and upgraded pins go in. Kwikset pin-tumbler deadbolts have another bypass that is doable with common household items and there is no safe guard for it. There is a tool well-known to locksmiths to open Kwikset KIK's non-destructively. Lockmasters also sells kits for bypassing some of the Asian knock-off Kwikset copies (cheap knockoffs of cheap locks, what could go wrong?) Best to go with a better lock to begin with.
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Re: Does this cross a line? re:locksport WTF

Postby Silverado » 3 Mar 2017 8:05

injection molded plastic filler block that would go between the cover and the body of the lock so that there would be no where for the spring cover to go.


That would work very well, and was also my first thought. Put something in place so the cover has nowhere to go....
Second, I would think that tapping each pin chamber and dropping a set screw/grub screw into each one would solve the problem and also leave it easily repinnable. I'm sure that'd increase the manufacturing cost though.
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Re: Does this cross a line? re:locksport WTF

Postby kokanin » 8 Mar 2017 8:30

I think this is perfectly fine, the design of the lock is bad and should be avoided, don't shoot the messenger
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Re: Does this cross a line? re:locksport WTF

Postby name-TBA » 9 Mar 2017 3:24

Bosnian Bill approaches stuff from a EOD and Engineering standpoint first, the Locksport stuff is secondary. When he does destructive entry, such as very high end bike locks, it is done in a manner you would expect a engineer contracted to do the work would do for finding vulnerabilities. While some may exploit his findings, the general trend has for the last few hundred years to explore the vulnerabilities of high end, seemingly impossible to break security devices, so they can be improved. This requires shoring up networked, social intelligence of a larger community of enthusiasts.

Does it cause confusion and alarm? Yes. However, if we never did this, we never would of advanced out of ancient style locks.

Remember, lock smithing is only but a subfield of Poliorcetics- Siege Warfare. You gotta go back to classical works like the Greek Aeneas the Tactician "Defense of a Fortified City" or Chinese Mohists writings on building complex, ingenious fortifications. We evolved as a commercial subset, but many tools I possess for destructive entry aren't too different from what we used in the Infantry for breach teams. Admittedly, bit more bruteforce and destructive on the infantry end. You don't send in someone like I once was in with some wicked axes to break down doors if your clearing a room for a valued guest to sleep in, making sure everything is safe.

Bosnian Bill approaches things with much more control and finesse (usually, I recall a certain Banana) than I would. Its why I value watching his videos. Learned picking a medeco is very, very hard from him. Learned some locks are complete crap.

This isn't unethical at all, is intact default Ethics. Ethics is more than just a system of A Priori, Axiomatic rules to follow, Ethics also asserts a Why. You'll see this in classical works on Ethics, to give scope and vital reason to any given logic, why it is a imperative. This us exactly what Aeneas the Tactician did, he went through every vulnerability that can befall a city under siege. He basically taught how to do it all, but he also made it possible to compentently defend against them as well, by explaining how the imperatives link to "How".

Why and How is hard wired, stemming from " Where" and "What", its a diverging thought processes in the mind, but mutually reinforcing as well when it recombines.


Image

You can process concepts like "Categorical Imperatives", and make it law (or like a law) " One should universally never do this", but that's a process that already assumes a permanent identity for a object or idea, that is universally always arrived at each and every time, regardless of circumstance, from the divergent "What-Where Dichotomy", and impedes the " How Why". Makes examining "How" difficult, and "Why" nearly sacrilegious. Creates a unnecessary bar to progress and development.

Bosnian Bill is hardly in the wrong for exploring bad vulnerabilities. I would in general recommend not fighting tooth and nail to publish for free on YouTube how to break into the hardest known quality locks using absurd complicated genius techniques just to show off your genius- true, criminals are really smart, but you don't have to invent something previously unthinkable to aid them. But if it is obvious people can exploit it with common attacks, or you discover a absurd shortsighted flaw people seem to be exploiting, then it makes full sense to go the classic route. Locksmiths do need to know how to get in and destroy locks as well, and nobody ever established a universal monopoly on that education, it has always been open source, even in war.

You only rely on categorical imperatives with novices. When you get someone who understands rules in relation to ethics, rewards and punishments, risk assessments and information flow.... some knowledge circumstantially still remains restricted, but a lot flows out.

I was just a grunt infantry paratrooper, but I own manuals on blowing up bridges, destroying tanks with grenades. medical manuals, engineering works, stuff on explosives, etc. Why should some guy who collected that stuff as a private need to know? It was realized a long time ago most people who get that data aren't the ISIS or Criminal type, proof is in the ISIS training videos, proof they refuse to read out manuals, so many blunders and mistakes. Ones reading it are people more like myself or perhaps you.

I do agree with this site's emphasis on keeping a lot of info shielded from a quick google search. I got a long crowbar..... not gonna discuss all the things I can do with it to some crook brainstorming. Bosnian Bill targets vulnerabilities your more advanced crooks already target. Only reason these locks work and are worth the cost is from centuries of competitive pressures to evolve better responses to crime. But I can't blame people from wanting to point out just stabbing a empty ballpoint pen in a bicycle lock opens them. Does it enable crime? Yes, but it prevents far more. People ditch it, lock gets redesigned. If your lock is so crappy a kid with next to nothing can bust in, then it is no good. Needs replaced.

Crooks are always probing vulnerabilities. They don't post videos explaining the faults. Forensics might. How large of a percentage do locksmiths come across in the aftermath? Half? A third? People replace their own locks, doors, door frames. Word has to get out to start that creative feedback loop that causes a revaluation of engineering and materials. That is Bosnian Bill's best service to society. Teaching us how to pick something is only second.

If anyone wants to chitchat further on Ethics and Military History, or philosophy in general, feel free to ask me. I specialize in it when I'm not learning the basics of locksmithing, bit of a obsession with me. Bosnian Bill has been always in the right so far. Well.... that time he checked out his pistols for the gun range to shoot locks might be a ethics violation, but one no ethics office for the CIA or FBI would ever care about, think they would say cool video. How much did those rounds cost? I think government looses more in waste from people throwing paper airplanes in the office than instruction videos showcasing bullets shot on youtube. Was a intriguing question, we all learned something.
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Re: Does this cross a line? re:locksport WTF

Postby drumnut01 » 9 Mar 2017 7:28

I personally don't think he crossed a line. 99.9% of the time someone with nefarious intentions is going to kick the door or break a window, not pop the pins out of a lock.
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Re: Does this cross a line? re:locksport WTF

Postby Ralph_Goodman » 9 Mar 2017 13:50

I never expected to see a breakdown of the different parts of the human brain on this site.

After reading the whole comment to find out why it was there, I can say quite confidently that I am still a bit confused.

Not sure it helps to illustrate many of the good points being made, but it sure got me to read (though perhaps not understand) the whole thing.

I think that the point is that most humans like to know things... because brain. :D
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Re: Does this cross a line? re:locksport WTF

Postby huxleypig » 11 Mar 2017 17:02

Bill? Finesse? Wtf? When he can't work out a way to pick something, after five minuted he goes straight to the destructive method, every time. He doesn't understand how basic bumping works. He thinks you just simply whack a bump key, once it is already fully inserted into the lock. :? His Vanlock 'pick' was nothing short of hilarious and the list of locks that completely befuddle him is long. He wont even attempt many more because he knows they are above his pay grade. Stop lionising mediocrity, ffs.

In fact, here is an interesting comparison which I believe is analogous; a recent study showed that musical quality (over a certain threshold) had no bearing on commercial success, instead it was down to exposure and marketing. In the locksport world, I would call the 'certain threshold' being able to SPP anything and then whatever you do after that is pretty much irrelevant, it is all about the glitter and lights.
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Re: Does this cross a line? re:locksport WTF

Postby MiPo » 12 Mar 2017 3:49

As someone said before, "security by obscurity" is not proper mechanism. Thieves and other criminals already know this info and probably use this or other methods to break in houses. It's like in computer cryptography, the algorithm is known but the private key is secret - that's what the system relies on. The lock must be secure itself and not because it's vulnerabilities are unknown.
What's the best way to make companies fix the security holes in their software? Make them public. Same here, show people how easy it is to break into locks using security flaws and let them to choose a different lock. Padlock bypass, shimming, euro snapping, etc. That's what we need to know to make an informed decision what to use.
To Bill. Well, I also don't like the increased commercial components. But it's fun to watch his videos. He shows interesting stuff and he can pick. Everyone has a different approach to this hobby. So there is no point not to try destructive entries if you have fun doing it.

"Does this cross a line?": No, as there is no line.
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Re: Does this cross a line? re:locksport WTF

Postby smokingman » 12 Mar 2017 6:59

Seems like much ado about nothing,since nothing is actually destroyed it is not really destructive entry,more a dis-assembly.
I have seen countless TV shows and movies showing bumping,small battering rams and cordless drills being used.
As Ricky the trailer park dude says "it ain't rocket appliance".
What is the best way to educate the masses? ... " A television in every home."
What is the best way to control the masses? ... " A television in every room."
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Re: Does this cross a line? re:locksport WTF

Postby jimu57 » 12 Mar 2017 8:52

I dont think the most used access to a locked building is destroying a lock. I would say kicking in a door or breaking a window is on top.
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Re: Does this cross a line? re:locksport WTF

Postby Silverado » 13 Mar 2017 6:48

Roughly 30 years ago, MacGyver showed us you can pick a lock with the blade of a swiss army knife and no lock company has fixed that vulnerability yet!


:lol:
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Re: Does this cross a line? re:locksport WTF

Postby jimu57 » 13 Mar 2017 7:03

Silverado wrote:Roughly 30 years ago, MacGyver showed us you can pick a lock with the blade of a swiss army knife and no lock company has fixed that vulnerability yet!


:lol:


Great one!
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Re: Does this cross a line? re:locksport WTF

Postby herolocksmith » 13 Mar 2017 16:24

I'd personally say that it's a good thing that he does with his channel. If the manufacturers of these poor quality locks see it they should really be doing something about it. After all, he got masterlock to attempt to sue him. I believe they've slightly improved their products after his public bashing. In the end it encourages the public to invest in better home security and gives locksmiths another selling point.
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