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by Raffles101 » 21 Feb 2017 8:35
Hi all
quick question
Same type and batch of locks. Whats the chances?
Thanks
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by G-lock » 21 Feb 2017 12:20
Raffles101 wrote:Hi all
quick question
Same type and batch of locks. Whats the chances?
Thanks
I doubt it but what kind of locks are they? Im fairly new to picking but, i have 2 stanley, 3 abus, 4 American mortise, & 2 sargent mortise locks & all of these locks are the same exact lock keyed the same & i assume from the same batch. None of them have the same binding order.
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by GWiens2001 » 21 Feb 2017 13:16
The possibility of duplicate binding order would probably depend on the quality of the lock and, most importantly, the number of pins. A Master padlock with four pins would have a greater chance of duplicate binding orders than a Best with seven pins and two shear lines.
Gordon
Just when you finally think you have learned it all, that is when you learn that you don't know anything yet.
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by Ralph_Goodman » 23 Feb 2017 12:31
It is important to know how mass produced the lock is.
The faster the locks are made, the more similar the locks will be. Whenever a lock is cheap, it means they are being made fast.
Fast construction, means excessive similarities.
But like Gordon said, the number of pins and sheer lines will benefit mass produced locks because there are just more possibilities for a difference.
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by Raffles101 » 26 Feb 2017 11:12
Yes i was thinking of mass produced locks. Say if you bought 3 the same with consecutive manufacturing no.s in partticular.
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by GWiens2001 » 26 Feb 2017 11:27
Raffles101 wrote:Yes i was thinking of mass produced locks. Say if you bought 3 the same with consecutive manufacturing no.s in partticular.
Again, read my response above. Low to mid quality locks, very unlikely. The cheaper the lock, the more sloppy the tolerances, the less likely the chance of the same binding order with the same number of pins. But more pins give more binding posibilities, so even less likely of the same binding order. More shear lines, and the possibilities are cut in half. Gordon
Just when you finally think you have learned it all, that is when you learn that you don't know anything yet.
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by Robotnik » 26 Feb 2017 13:03
Thinking about binding order in simplistic terms, it's a fairly straightforward statistical problem. Take a 5 pin lock with a single shear line: starting out, all five pinstacks have a theoretically equal chance of binding. Set this one. Now there are four theoretical possibilities remaining, set the next...repeat until opened. Thus, we can calculate the probability of two locks having the same binding order by solving five-factorial (5!)
5! = 5x4x3x2x1 = 120
A five pin lock by this logic has a 1 in 120 chance of having the same binding order as a randomly selected counterpart. A four pin lock would have a 1 in 24 chance, and a six pin would have a 1 in 720 chance.
Of course, life doesn't always track with stats. Binding order is affected not only by variations in chamber bore, but also by pin diameter (driver and key), presence of spools, etc. I have locks that will open in multiple orders.
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by Raffles101 » 26 Feb 2017 14:52
Gordon if more expensive locks are bought is the chance increased? this is surely counter intuitive to security as you think you are buying a safer lock?
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by GWiens2001 » 26 Feb 2017 15:16
Better quality locks are more consistent, and the difference between which pin is binding and which ones are not are less.
Gordon
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by Jacob Morgan » 11 Mar 2017 14:46
This is a a slightly old post, but came across these videos that might be of interest. Here is a video of profile cylinders being drilled in some Asian factory. Equipment is a little rough. https://youtu.be/Km0WUP2SvmQKeep an eye on how the cylinders are clamped and drilled. If the cylinders are always clamped such that they are angled a certain way every time then that would result in a greater chance of similar binding orders (for example, chips are building up in the vise, the vise is not properly aligned with the spindle, etc.) On the other hand, if there is run out or other inaccuracy in the drill spindle then holes could be drilled somewhat randomly, which even if the cylinder is clamped poorly might mean that two locks from the same line would not have similar binding order. Similar binding order would also depend on plugs being drilled off the same way each time. From this video, the way this factory does it there would be less of a chance of being off the same way every time, unless the mechanism that traverses the drill is consistently off the same way as it goes from right to left. https://youtu.be/vGdDH21xjiUThis would all be assuming that a factory had only one such machine of each type and each component type went through that same machine. It also assumes that the production of the respective parts would be between the same preventive maintenance / tooling change times.
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