Cross keying dillema

[jimu57]

I have been learning master keying for a few months, on my own. Have learned a lot in different techniques such as rotating constant and selective keying. I know that basics as well. How to determine pins needed in a cylinder, ghost keys, etc.

I am helping a friend to figure out a master key system for his building that has a partial master system (poor) and a mix of brands of cylinders. He has offices that he leases, his business is there as well, a few studio apartments. There are entrance doors that are shared by various people. For instance, door A may be used by users 1, 2, and 3. Door B may be used by users 1,2, and 4. Door C may be used by users 2 and 4.

In this situation, it seems that cross keying is unavoidable. Some info I have read about master keying not longer uses cross keying terminology but refers to my situation as mainly sub-master keying. I am trying to avoid having stacks of #2 master wafers in a cylinder. This is a 6 pin Schlage system.

To reduce some of the existing cross keying I am thinking of using keys for entrance to the building (sub-masters) and separate (change) keys for individuals offices. Some sub-masters with have no changes under it but some will have changes.

Am I thinking correctly? If anyone has any input, I would appreciate it.

jim

[RedE]

I think your on the right track for sure about separating the building entrance from the change keys. Not only does it create a whole bunch of phantom keys like you said, but it means that you'd have to rekey some offices too if an exterior key were to missing.

Here's how I would lay out the system:
Change keys to each office
Exterior door key directly under the grandmaster key
Masters for each division (group of offices) under the grandmaster.
SKD keysets for sensitive areas as needed.

Yes, most people would carry around two keys instead of one, but the cost of an extra key (especially basic Schlage) is insignificant to the amount of security gained over maison keying IMO.

I would also try to make a chamber constant with a 0 or 1 depth as you won't find these depths in non-MK Schlage systems. Some people would say a 0,1, or 2 cut would be OK, and I thought so for along time until I bought a Schlage D knob that had a 2 cut on one of the keys. So it's 0 and 1 for me from now on!

Lastly, I'd recommend using nickel silver pins for this job if possible. They'll last way longer than the brass pins will and I've found that they work a little better for MK stuff.

Happy locksmithing!

[cledry]

Sell Primus cylinders for exterior. Cut office keys on Primus but leave office locks on C keyway. The sidebar and finger pins will allow some security to a maison keyed lock.

Not as good as installing card access or access control but a good way to make the bast out of this situation.

[jimu57]

I think he wants to stay with standard Schlage C. I already use nickel silver bottom pins, master pins, all drivers, springs, etc.

The odd thing about this situation is there is no one else in the building that would need a sub master key. A single top level master would do it. He leases a section that has an outside entrance and an inside door that connects to the main building but stays locked. Since they are a stock/finance company, they require that all doors to their area to NOT be on a master key system. That is no biggie.

The most confusing thing is to give everyone access to doors they need. I am still working with him on determining who needs keys and to what doors. Having to do this in parts because he has an old master system on Schlage 5 pin, another section on 6 pin Schlage, and even another on a different 6 pin Schlage master but isnt even needed these. All were done by locksmiths that are either dead, in another state, or have no idea who did it. I have to take apart 12 cylinders to see how they were pinned. I have that in a spreadsheet. Too many master pins in them for the given master key.

Where I live, there is no locksmith in that county, and only maybe 3 in the surrounding counties.

Thanks for the input. Everything I hear on here gives me a bit more knowledge. I may pick your brains again when we get the key assignment defined.


jim

[cledry]

I think he wants to stay with standard Schlage C. I already use nickel silver bottom pins, master pins, all drivers, springs, etc.

The odd thing about this situation is there is no one else in the building that would need a sub master key. A single top level master would do it. He leases a section that has an outside entrance and an inside door that connects to the main building but stays locked. Since they are a stock/finance company, they require that all doors to their area to NOT be on a master key system. That is no biggie.

The most confusing thing is to give everyone access to doors they need. I am still working with him on determining who needs keys and to what doors. Having to do this in parts because he has an old master system on Schlage 5 pin, another section on 6 pin Schlage, and even another on a different 6 pin Schlage master but isnt even needed these. All were done by locksmiths that are either dead, in another state, or have no idea who did it. I have to take apart 12 cylinders to see how they were pinned. I have that in a spreadsheet. Too many master pins in them for the given master key.

Where I live, there is no locksmith in that county, and only maybe 3 in the surrounding counties.

Thanks for the input. Everything I hear on here gives me a bit more knowledge. I may pick your brains again when we get the key assignment defined.


jim

Use classic Primus, it is compatible with existing C cylinders. I am guessing the guy doesn't want to spend money, hence the no to Primus option.

[tpark]

At our office building, someone stole an exterior lock that was on the master system. If exterior doors are in a separate key system, compromises of that key system don't compromise the internal master scheme. I like Cledry's suggestion a great deal, because it provides duplication resistance, and the external, maison keys locks have many wafers, obscuring any mastering somewhat. Also, if the keys are cut onto Primus blanks, and some require the sidepins, it provides duplication resistance. For external doors, the pick resistance of the Primus locks is a bonus. Primus costs more, but the added key control should be worth it.

[RedE]

I think it's important to distinguish Primus XP from classic Primus, as the old Primus patent ran out 10 years ago. When the others say Primus, I'd think they mean XP.

[Sinifar]

If you only need to make 3 different keys fit the entry, and their own interior locks -- try this --

Tenant #1 has a good hunk of the building. Key - 14767

Entry key for rest - 18967

Master - 16103

New Tenant # 2- 18767

New Tenant # 3 - 14967

This uses the phantom keys as well as not adding keys to the entry locks or worse wafering up the thing. Now everybody's key will open the common doors and not each others offices. Trust me it works!

Up and running someplace around here .. no address or keyway PLEASE!

Sinifar

[jimu57]

So, the entrance lock would be set up like this?


mstr 1 6 1 0 3
chg 1 4 7 6 7
chg 1 8 9 6 7
chg 1 8 7 6 7
chg 1 4 9 6 7
bot pin 1 4 1 0 3
mstr pin 2 6 6 4
mstr pin 2 2

[Sinifar]

Basically, as long as you do not use any cuts off the master for change keys except constants, it will work.

Sinifar

[jimu57]

Spent last night with Excel doing all kinds of iterations. Its finally sinking in on how to easily select bittings without a lot of master wafers.

Thanks Sinifar and everyone.....

jimu57

[cledry]

Basically, as long as you do not use any cuts off the master for change keys except constants, it will work.

Sinifar

That is stating the obvious! LOL

[cledry]

How many changes are we talking about a handful or hundreds? I don't think it was mentioned.

[jimu57]

Have about 50 doors... eventually. Will have around 20 changes. Some multiple doors with same change key. Some only master key access. Some users will have up to 3 door access. Some doors shared in mixed combinations. Its an old building split into about 6 physical areas. Doors can connect some areas but want restricted access.

I have made a floorplan and all doors identified and numbered. Working on who needs keys and what doors they need access to. Trying to avoid piling up of #2 wafers. That is the problem in the recent renovation. No documentation on keying. Had to pull cylinders and see how they were pinned. Stacks of 4 #2 wafers. This is only on 1 door with 5 users with individual offices.

I will eventually get it. Taking me longer. You guys could do it in a heartbeat. I have a locksmith buddy that is going to check out my setups before I do it. At least I will learn a lot. And since no locksmiths closeby, he will save a lot of money.

I truly appreciate all the help. You cant even buy the info I get on here.

Jim

[Tyler J. Thomas]

Have about 50 doors... eventually. Will have around 20 changes. Some multiple doors with same change key. Some only master key access. Some users will have up to 3 door access. Some doors shared in mixed combinations. Its an old building split into about 6 physical areas. Doors can connect some areas but want restricted access.

I have made a floorplan and all doors identified and numbered. Working on who needs keys and what doors they need access to. Trying to avoid piling up of #2 wafers. That is the problem in the recent renovation. No documentation on keying. Had to pull cylinders and see how they were pinned. Stacks of 4 #2 wafers. This is only on 1 door with 5 users with individual offices.

I will eventually get it. Taking me longer. You guys could do it in a heartbeat. I have a locksmith buddy that is going to check out my setups before I do it. At least I will learn a lot. And since no locksmiths closeby, he will save a lot of money.

I truly appreciate all the help. You cant even buy the info I get on here.

Jim

Wish I had seen this sooner but it looks like you've been taken care of.

If you have any questions or need further assistance by all means post or start a new thread. I'm not as dangerous as I once was with master keying (haven't had to generate or design systems beyond hierarchy in years) BUT I am starting to relearn a lot of the theory to pass ILA and ALOA certifications later this summer.