How to Master Key

[Evan]

Returning to this for the upteenth time. In the listing of possible keys showing pin chambers 2, 3 , and 4, the beginning of the list is 013/015/017. Why was 011 omitted? That happened also with 033 being a first bitting.

Jim,

011 and 031 were omitted because they both have one depths in the fourth position, which is the same as the master key (36514). Remember that you only want a change key to share cuts with the master key in chambers that aren't progressed. Otherwise a key cut to 30114 in this example would also operate 30134, 30154, and 30174.

Sorry but this is a very bad sweeping generalization to make when discussing master keying.

It is both wrong and right at the same time depending on type of master key system you are working on:

Many people become confused around this issue. Most master keying systems you will see are "Total Position Progression" and change keys within such a system should NEVER share any bittings in common with the TMK ever. If it is a Level III or higher keying system you will have change keys that share common cuts with intermediate level master keys only, but never with the Top Master Key in your system. So if you encounter a TPP type keying system and observe change keys being used which share common cuts with the TMK, it was deployed by someone who really should not be master keying locks.

If you are dealing with a "Rotating Constant" type master keying system then every key in the system will have the same number of cuts in common with the top master key of the system which are rotated through "patterns" which prevent any key interchange or unintended operation of cylinders by keys not designed to operate them. With split pin locks, this is the only time you will see the TMK sharing cuts with change keys.

~~ Evan

[RedE]

My answer was to provide context towards Sinifar's example of a small 5 pin RC system. Discussing TPP would be totally different than the method that's been discussed in this thread. If it seemed like I was making a huge generalization, I apologize for that.

As far as the two systems are concerned, TPP is unnecessary in this situation. Why? Because there's no reason to have master pins in all chambers when this isn't an institutional system with a huge keyspace and multi levels of keying... it's just a question about a small Schlage 6 pin system that jimu57 is developing.

I probably don't know as much as you do Evan. As a matter of fact, I've actually learned many things from your posts years before I was a member. Though at the same time, I service a 5 level system that has a TMK, 98 GMKs with about 10 MKs below each GMK, and each MK has several sub masters and change keys below it. So I don't consider myself a novice on masterkeying that would make a mistake like getting the two systems mixed up.

[TORCH [of KCK]]

Hey all.

Not meaning of spin off topic.
When I've master keyed my own locks before,
And I've always used a single t-pin trap doing so.


Now, my question to the  (current & prior) licensed locksmiths;

"When you setup a master key system for a business / office, have or do you offer to install a T-pin traps?"

(And explaining the security benefits of both pick resistance & reportable evidence at hand)

《My view - while I'm using T-pin traps... limitations of master wafer usage is ok. Adding more wafers to the system as needed for the number of 'key holder control' & yes, sub-mastering is a pain in the... ;^) 》

[RedE]

Hey all.

Not meaning of spin off topic.
When I've master keyed my own locks before,
And I've always used a single t-pin trap doing so.


Now, my question to the  (current & prior) licensed locksmiths;

"When you setup a master key system for a business / office, have or do you offer to install a T-pin traps?"

(And explaining the security benefits of both pick resistance & reportable evidence at hand)

《My view - while I'm using T-pin traps... limitations of master wafer usage is ok. Adding more wafers to the system as needed for the number of 'key holder control' & yes, sub-mastering is a pain in the... ;^) 》

I would guess to venture that many locksmiths in the US have never even heard of trap pins. I know what they are but have never encountered them in any lock, including high security ones. Maybe they're more commonly in European stuff like Evva or Zeiss Ikon, but I couldn't really tell you to be sure.

[dll932]

Using the key profile for master keying is quite dangerous. For large system, a lock with 6 pins and passive profile pins should used instead.

Indeed. Lots of hardware stores will copy L or R series Sargent on Ln or Rn blanks.

[billdeserthills]

Hey all.

Not meaning of spin off topic.
When I've master keyed my own locks before,
And I've always used a single t-pin trap doing so.


Now, my question to the  (current & prior) licensed locksmiths;

"When you setup a master key system for a business / office, have or do you offer to install a T-pin traps?"

(And explaining the security benefits of both pick resistance & reportable evidence at hand)

《My view - while I'm using T-pin traps... limitations of master wafer usage is ok. Adding more wafers to the system as needed for the number of 'key holder control' & yes, sub-mastering is a pain in the... ;^) 》

I would guess to venture that many locksmiths in the US have never even heard of trap pins. I know what they are but have never encountered them in any lock, including high security ones. Maybe they're more commonly in European stuff like Evva or Zeiss Ikon, but I couldn't really tell you to be sure.

I've never heard of T-Pins or Trap pins and neither has this site-
I keep being re-turned to this post when I inquire

[RedE]

Hey all.

Not meaning of spin off topic.
When I've master keyed my own locks before,
And I've always used a single t-pin trap doing so.


Now, my question to the  (current & prior) licensed locksmiths;

"When you setup a master key system for a business / office, have or do you offer to install a T-pin traps?"

(And explaining the security benefits of both pick resistance & reportable evidence at hand)

《My view - while I'm using T-pin traps... limitations of master wafer usage is ok. Adding more wafers to the system as needed for the number of 'key holder control' & yes, sub-mastering is a pain in the... ;^) 》

I would guess to venture that many locksmiths in the US have never even heard of trap pins. I know what they are but have never encountered them in any lock, including high security ones. Maybe they're more commonly in European stuff like Evva or Zeiss Ikon, but I couldn't really tell you to be sure.

I've never heard of T-Pins or Trap pins and neither has this site-
I keep being re-turned to this post when I inquire

I did a Google search and came up with this from Lockmasters. It's a gif that shows how trap pins operate. http://locktechinc.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/abs-30-trap-GIF.gif

[jimu57]

I was thinking that it was using a T pin like in Schlage F series but using a wafer on top of it in order to use it as a driver and use regular springs.

[Evan]

Using the key profile for master keying is quite dangerous. For large system, a lock with 6 pins and passive profile pins should used instead.

Indeed. Lots of hardware stores will copy L or R series Sargent on Ln or Rn blanks.

Sometimes you are dealing with systems large enough where even a six pin lock cylinder is not enough to handle the desired levels of keying for a project. Think of a large building that needs floor masters, or a large complex of buildings that needs floor masters and building masters (uses up too many pinning chambers to create those additional keying levels).

For more complicated systems I would recommend Master Ring Cylinders. But even with Master Ring Cylinders there are still situations where you might use a multi-section keyway family for a variety of reasons.

When you do have a situation where you are using multi-section keyways to add levels of master keying to a system, be sure to scramble where you use the duplicate bittings on the other floors or buildings in the keying system, as if someone obtains a duplicate of their key on the master milled blank, you wouldn't want them to be able to go to another floor and have it be easy to figure out which other doors they can open with the new key.

~~ Evan

[billdeserthills]

Hey all.

Not meaning of spin off topic.
When I've master keyed my own locks before,
And I've always used a single t-pin trap doing so.


Now, my question to the  (current & prior) licensed locksmiths;

"When you setup a master key system for a business / office, have or do you offer to install a T-pin traps?"

(And explaining the security benefits of both pick resistance & reportable evidence at hand)

《My view - while I'm using T-pin traps... limitations of master wafer usage is ok. Adding more wafers to the system as needed for the number of 'key holder control' & yes, sub-mastering is a pain in the... ;^) 》

I would guess to venture that many locksmiths in the US have never even heard of trap pins. I know what they are but have never encountered them in any lock, including high security ones. Maybe they're more commonly in European stuff like Evva or Zeiss Ikon, but I couldn't really tell you to be sure.

I've never heard of T-Pins or Trap pins and neither has this site-
I keep being re-turned to this post when I inquire

I did a Google search and came up with this from Lockmasters. It's a gif that shows how trap pins operate. http://locktechinc.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/abs-30-trap-GIF.gif

Thanks that explains everything