Locks with thumbturn or lock?

[MatrixBlackRock]

If we look at it from common sense perspective and not just looking at safety codes and fire and life safety codes as being the end all be all which I honestly feel the people writing them take themselves way too seriously sometimes...

It's all about life safety, with an occupied structure, in a panic situation, there will be a mad dash for the method of egress to escape, if that method of egress is un-lockable, the first to arrive may very well get killed by the panicking mob still rushing to a locked door that should be easily opened.

A few years back there was a night club, I believe in New York where an on-stage pyrotechnic display went very bad, a number of people where crushed and killed by the panicking mob trying to escape through a illegally locked exit door, a door that had been locked by management to prevent patrons opening it to let non-paying patrons in past the front doors.

When the structure is un-occupied then any method of lockdown is legal and safe, occupied is a different world.

NFPA 101 7.2.1.5.3 Locks, if provided, shall not require a key, a tool, or special knowledge or effort for operation from the egress side.

NFPA 101 7.2.1.5.5.1 (2)



If a liquor store is open for business and their glass door with adams rite swing bolt and keyed mortise cylinders on both sides is unlocked and there's a fire in the store, the worker and customers all run out and everything is fine. So I don't see why its soooo bad to have keyed on both sides doors at a business. When the store closes and the employees go home there's nobody inside and the doors are locked and if some bum breaks a window pane, they still cant open the door easily and have to hop over the door frame in order to get in and out while looting or whatever.

I guess the only reasonable thing I can think of is if a customer got locked in a store by pure accident and there was a fire and they couldnt get out via those front doors that are keyed on both sides. Is that what the rules are protecting? the one dumb shmuch who gets locked in a store after hours? I just dont see the rules forbidding keyed on both sides cylinders on doors being useful during normal operating hours.

Thoughts?
Squelchtone[/quote]

[MatrixBlackRock]

If a liquor store is open for business and their glass door with adams rite swing bolt and keyed mortise cylinders on both sides is unlocked and there's a fire in the store, the worker and customers all run out and everything is fine. So I don't see why its soooo bad to have keyed on both sides doors at a business. Thoughts?
Squelchtone

Screwed that last post up, anyhow both sides of the door can have locks, however the following is a code requirement.

NFPA 101 7,2,1,5,5,1 (2) A readily visible durable sign in letters not less than 1 inch high on a contrasting background that reads as follows, "THIS DOOR TO REMAIN UNLOCKED WHEN THE BUILDING IS OCCUPIED," must be placed on or adjacent to the door.

The reason, as I stated before is, when panicked, humans turn into animals and it becomes survival of the strongest and many times the code writers formulate codes based on a previous loss of life.

As such I would strongly anyone who works with access control be quite familiar with NFPA 72 National Fire Code NFPA 101 Life Safety, U.L. 294 and the applicable sections of the Americans with Disability Act, failing to follow those codes in many jurisdictions can actually become a criminal act should something bad happen and there is a loss of life.

Wayne

[Squelchtone]

If a liquor store is open for business and their glass door with adams rite swing bolt and keyed mortise cylinders on both sides is unlocked and there's a fire in the store, the worker and customers all run out and everything is fine. So I don't see why its soooo bad to have keyed on both sides doors at a business. Thoughts?
Squelchtone

Screwed that last post up, anyhow both sides of the door can have locks, however the following is a code requirement.

NFPA 101 7,2,1,5,5,1 (2) A readily visible durable sign in letters not less than 1 inch high on a contrasting background that reads as follows, "THIS DOOR TO REMAIN UNLOCKED WHEN THE BUILDING IS OCCUPIED," must be placed on or adjacent to the door.

that's great info, I will probably be making up some of these signs.

Many thanks,
Squelchtone

[MatrixBlackRock]

It is also allowed in NFPA 101 (2012 Edition) under Section 7.2.1.5.5 but, like the IBC, occupancy classifications ultimately determine if it's able to be used and under what circumstances. Life safety codes are never a cut and dry affair, unfortunately.

That is true only if the proper signage is in place and even then some AHJ's frown on it and a follow up spot inspection, which finds a locked door that should be un-locked during occupancy, can result in that interior lock either being permanently removed and replaced with an ADA compliant device such as a panic bar, in addition to an obligatory fine.

Wayne

[MatrixBlackRock]

[that's great info, I will probably be making up some of these signs.

Many thanks,
Squelchtone

BTW any NFPA code can be viewed for no charge here.

http://www.nfpa.org/codes-and-standards

Registration is required but NFPA does not sell or divulge your information to anyone outside of the NFPA.

Of particular interest to locksmiths would be;

NFPA 101 section 7 egress. Self explanatory.

NFPA 72 section 21 Emergency control function interfaces. The relays and devices required to interface a fire alarm with an access control system.

Wayne

Wayne

[MatrixBlackRock]

Thanks for that info! All those extra revisions and addendums remind me of a time when I was installing phone and data wiring at a retail store and the particular cities City Hall made me pull a permit for running Cat-5 data which had never happened anywhere else before,

Come on down to South Florida, you need to pull a permit to pass gas down here and the built-out cities are the worst, as the AHJ's need to justify their continued existence.

A number of years back I installed a fire alarm for a pizza shop in a strip store in Coral Springs, on my final, a fire inspector gigged me for having a horn and strobe adjacent to an interior door that lead to a means of egress, according to the approved plans one was supposed to be installed there, but the AHJ played clout balls required me to change it to a strobe only and pay a re-inspection fee and call in another final. Well next final a different fire inspector gigged for not having a horn and strobe at the same location, I lost it and began screaming at the inspector something about if he didn't sign off on my permit, his forwarding address was going to be the roll-off dumpster out back. The police where called and the inspector tried to have me arrested for threatening a public official, I in turn threatened to bring the entire CS fire safety department up before the Broward County Board of Rules and Appeals (BRA) and the fire inspectors manager and the police discussed this for a while, some calls where made and it was decided it was all just a misunderstanding and my permit was signed off.

and then they gave me grief about the 2 phone lines going to the alarm panel only being POTS lines, couldnt have 1 POTS and 1 PBX line and neither line could be used for anything else like a credit card machine or office fax machine. I get where they're coming from, but yikes, image being the business owner and paying Verizon for 2 business POTS lines per month just for the fire/burg alarm.

While that is not required for non-U.L. burglary, it is for fire, the reason (at least with a FAX) is incoming calls will repeatably try to re-contact a fax and even though the system has line seizure, those incoming calls can block an out-dialed alarm to the central station, if the other line has gone into an out of service condition.

Down here we have the same requirements for elevator emergency phones, one dedicated line per elevator unless they utilize a common dialer for all of the elevators.

Wayne

[Comrade627]

Being involved with fire departments and OSHA when I hear no thumbturns inside I think fire hazard, but at the same time I'm with Squelchtone. Who gets locked IN a building (other than this guy of course http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/11168578/Man-spends-evening-locked-in-Waterstones-after-staff-shut-up-shop.html). But in my apparent 3rd hand, one incident changing a code, long shot.

In the end, emergency services can still get in.

or they can just call the Marines. Marines can make new doors.

[Tyler J. Thomas]

It is also allowed in NFPA 101 (2012 Edition) under Section 7.2.1.5.5 but, like the IBC, occupancy classifications ultimately determine if it's able to be used and under what circumstances. Life safety codes are never a cut and dry affair, unfortunately.

That is true only if the proper signage is in place and even then some AHJ's frown on it and a follow up spot inspection, which finds a locked door that should be un-locked during occupancy, can result in that interior lock either being permanently removed and replaced with an ADA compliant device such as a panic bar, in addition to an obligatory fine.

Wayne

Hence why I said "under what circumstances".

[cledry]

The guy who gets locked in is usually the employee who locks the door and then proceeds to do the till and the paperwork before going home.

As for the signs they are available and even though I see the signs I am uncomfortable with them and this is why.

I was working on a Gamestop store which has not only a Trident but two locking burglar bars on the rear door. The Trident is fine but the bars are not needed with a Trident so why have them. I digress though, the store when I visited had the Trident locked and the two bars in place and not only that each was locked in place with padlocks. The sign was there though so that makes it all right? I don't think so.

In fact I needed to service the Trident but the store didn't even have keys to the padlocks on site! The manager had the only key on his ring and he was off that day! Again the sign doesn't help one bit with life safety; compliance yes, safety no.

I will walk away from jobs like this and let the guys who think a sticker makes things all OK have them.

[MatrixBlackRock]

I will walk away from jobs like this and let the guys who think a sticker makes things all OK have them.

Smart move, that is a good way to do business.

Wayne

[dll932]

I work in a racino that has a lot of doors facing the track. For decades Adams-Rite flip bolts with double cylinders were fine. In the last few years it seems like the local fire marshals "got religion" and started requiring panic hardware on all exit doors. That was in response to all the night club fires where people were trapped.

[BobbyZ]

I guess I'm not the only one who has heard 3 different things from 3 different inspectors.We had a thumb turn on the outer door and a key on the inner and my dad has been there for almost 40 years.It was never a problem until recently although the funny part was each inspector told us something different LOL.We left it be as it was just some remodel work and by the time it was all said and done it was fine the way it was and they even thanked us for changing it

[unjust]

again code varies by jurisdiction, and you will have multiple inspectors on site, who may have different interpretations of their respective codes.

in this case IBC 2012 1008.1.9.3.2 says that you CAN have locks on the egress side - with some provisions in certain occupancies. that's building code. your building inspector will enforce the appropriate version of that code, but the fire marshall/inspector may refer to a potentially conflicting piece of lifesafety code. one *hopes* that when jurisdictions adopt model code that they do so with versions that are cohesive with their related codes, but sometimes codes conflict. (don't get me started on accessible dressing rooms in texas a few years back)

now in terms of panic hardware, it's generally required on assembly type occupancies of more than 50 persons (almost everywhere). it's entirely possible that a newer model code was adopted that revised occupancy load calculations, or the spaces "use" changed based on adding a concession stand or something, and the annual inspection flagged something as non-compliant, or a new inspector learned that they'd screwed up previously.

[TORCH [of KCK]]

Yep, until reading...
I would of said BS.
And believed that it was a rumor,
used to justify use & prevent the use of
"(Double Letter) Tool"
AKA "Firefighter's Bypass"

《《Please Do Not State Name 》》
(Wrong Forum)

[jimu57]

How about key cylinder outside and nothing inside?
Dummy cylinder or whatever.