Hardened spring steel for picks

[Jrexx]

Hello,

A short time ago I got the idea to try to make some picks myself, and last weekend I gave it a try.
I bought 5 meter hardened spring steel feeler gauge in both 0.6mm and 0.4mm. First I made some designs (took the Romstar template and changed it slightly so the handle would fit the width of the feeler gauge, which is 13mm), and then transfered the (laser) print to the metal with acetone.

Then I started on the bench grinder to remove some material fast. Well, actually it turned out to be the opposite, since it took me close to an hour for two picks to remove most of the material (before working on the finish). When I see video's, the material seems to disappear really fast, although it often isn't clear which material has been used.

Now I am wondering if it's normal that this procedure takes that long with hardened spring steel, or could it be caused by the fast that I am using a fairly light bench grinder? The bench grinder works really nice, but it's only 150 watts. It has 36 grit and 60 grit stones.

Regards

[greengrowlocks]

An hour seems long to me just to remove excess material. It generally takes me 5-10 min to remove the excess with my bench grinder while dipping in water periodically to cool the steel. After that I use a dremel with tungsten bit or a vice and file to get a rough shape. I would guess it takes me about 45 min to an hour to complete each pick. I'm not an expert pick maker so hopefully someone else will chime in.

[Jrexx]

An hour seems long to me just to remove excess material. It generally takes me 5-10 min to remove the excess with my bench grinder while dipping in water periodically to cool the steel. After that I use a dremel with tungsten bit or a vice and file to get a rough shape. I would guess it takes me about 45 min to an hour to complete each pick. I'm not an expert pick maker so hopefully someone else will chime in.

It seems really long indeed. In 5-10 minutes I've only removed a few milimeters of material.

What material do you use?

[greengrowlocks]

The metal I've been using is "K&S Precision Metals Stainless Steel" that comes in 12" x 3/4" strips. I normally use the .025" and .017" thicknesses. I'm not sure what grit the bench wheel is, I need to replace the wheel soon though.

[Jrexx]

I wonder if anyone around here can tell the difference between the two materials when it comes to taking off excessive material with the bench grinder. When I was cutting the feeler gauge to length, I also noticed that my dremel tool with fibre reinforced cutting disc needed quite some time to cut it. It definitely wasn't like a hot knife going through butter, although I'm not entirely sure about the quality of the cutting disc.

@greengrowlocks
How powerfull is your bench grinder?

[greengrowlocks]

I wonder if anyone around here can tell the difference between the two materials when it comes to taking off excessive material with the bench grinder. When I was cutting the feeler gauge to length, I also noticed that my dremel tool with fibre reinforced cutting disc needed quite some time to cut it. It definitely wasn't like a hot knife going through butter, although I'm not entirely sure about the quality of the cutting disc.

@greengrowlocks
How powerfull is your bench grinder?

Just checked, It's 1/4 hp at 4.6 amps. I've been using standard dremel brand metal cutting discs and it does take some time just to cut the feeler gauge to length. I tried the dremel brand "Premium Metal Cutting Wheel" as well but it's much worse than the reinforced discs so I just stick to those even though I burn through them fairly quickly.

[tpark]

I use Starrett feeler gauge and Precision Brand feeler gauge. I think the Starrett material is harder, usually I'm using 25 or 20 thou stock but sometimes thinner. I use tin snips to cut ém to length, and snip out some of the material on the pick end so I don't have to do so much grinding. Make sure you use a proper dust mask when grinding. I use a bench grinder for most of the shaping, then hand files/sandpaper for finishing. I've used a Dremel tool too. The stuff I use is 1/2 inch in width and comes on a 25 foot roll, so I'm not removing as much material as you are. I hope this is useful information.

--Ted

[Jacob Morgan]

A typical 8" grinder these days would draw over 400 watts, so you might just have a small grinder. Was it intended to be used in a metal shop or is it more for model making?

If someone else wants to post their wattage it is amps x volts. If watts are not on the nameplate the amps should be. Volts are the volts at the outlet. Usually 110 in North American homes and 220 everywhere else.

Other thing to check is if the grinding wheels need dressing. If someone tried grinding aluminum or brass or some other soft substance it can load up a wheel and make it less effective on steel. There are a couple of tools to dress a wheel to clean up the surface, a hardware store could help you get one if you do not have a wheel dresser already. Dressing the wheel also makes grinding wheel faces flat instead of rounded and removes any grooves.

If the set up you have is as good as it will ever be then you could anneal the stock before grinding, grind the soft metal, then harden and temper it. A propane torch can be used. It can be tricky and one might ruin a pick or two to get the hang of it, but it can be done. Annealed metal will be soft and would likely speed up the grinding a good amount. That will only work with carbon steel.

[Jrexx]

I use Starrett feeler gauge and Precision Brand feeler gauge. I think the Starrett material is harder, usually I'm using 25 or 20 thou stock but sometimes thinner. I use tin snips to cut ém to length, and snip out some of the material on the pick end so I don't have to do so much grinding. Make sure you use a proper dust mask when grinding. I use a bench grinder for most of the shaping, then hand files/sandpaper for finishing. I've used a Dremel tool too. The stuff I use is 1/2 inch in width and comes on a 25 foot roll, so I'm not removing as much material as you are. I hope this is useful information.

--Ted

I haven't thought about using tin snips, I might give that a try since I have one laying around if I recall correctly. How much power does your bench grinder have? The width of your feeler gauge is really close to mine, so I don't have to remove much more than you have to.

A typical 8" grinder these days would draw over 400 watts, so you might just have a small grinder. Was it intended to be used in a metal shop or is it more for model making?

If someone else wants to post their wattage it is amps x volts. If watts are not on the nameplate the amps should be. Volts are the volts at the outlet. Usually 110 in North American homes and 220 everywhere else.

Other thing to check is if the grinding wheels need dressing. If someone tried grinding aluminum or brass or some other soft substance it can load up a wheel and make it less effective on steel. There are a couple of tools to dress a wheel to clean up the surface, a hardware store could help you get one if you do not have a wheel dresser already. Dressing the wheel also makes grinding wheel faces flat instead of rounded and removes any grooves.

If the set up you have is as good as it will ever be then you could anneal the stock before grinding, grind the soft metal, then harden and temper it. A propane torch can be used. It can be tricky and one might ruin a pick or two to get the hang of it, but it can be done. Annealed metal will be soft and would likely speed up the grinding a good amount. That will only work with carbon steel.

I got the bench grinder as a gift, but it seems it's not a specific model for model making. Actually, to me it seems that for small pieces of thin metal, you don't really need a very powerful benchgrinder, but I'm no expert.

I'm also curious to the wattage of other people's bench grinders, it would be nice if some more people could provide that information.

As I mentioned, the bench grinder was a gift and until now I didn't find much use for it, so I haven't been using it to grind other material. I think the set up is as good as it ever will be.

I've read about annealing, it seems knife makers do that too. I'm not sure how much of a time consuming proces this is.

[tpark]

I haven't thought about using tin snips, I might give that a try since I have one laying around if I recall correctly. How much power does your bench grinder have? The width of your feeler gauge is really close to mine, so I don't have to remove much more than you have to.

My grinder has a 1/3 HP motor on it, but I'm never really loading the motor, since I'm only removing a little bit of material at a time. I've annealed/hardened tools before, but for picks I make sure the work piece never gets very hot. I made some dimple picks from wire, bending/forging the end, shaping it with a file, then hardening/tempering the end so it would be springy again.

I bought a whole bunch of the HPC flat stock, but I haven't used it for picks, since the feeler gauge stock works well. Anyway, here's some snipped out blanks...

[Jacob Morgan]

For annealing steel heat it cherry red then lay it aside to cool slowly. Annealed, it will be as soft as it can be. To harden and temper you could look for a YouTube video by Eddie the Wire on pick making. Near the end of the video he goes over heat treating with a propane torch. The short version is you bring it to cherry red then quench in a liquid (everyone who does it has their secret recipie, I use tap water). At that point it will be as hard as, and as brittle as, a file. To soften some to reduce brittleness one tempers the metal. Typically by polishing the pick then slowly heating until it turns colors, stopping at a given color then setting aside to cool slowly. Yellow or blue are popular colors to temper to.

My bench grinder, an old Montgomery-Wards PowerKraft, uses 682 watts. My belt grinder uses 621 watts. My Foredom tool (basically an industrial strength flexible-shaft Dremel tool) uses 92 watts. My Foley-Belsaw 200, that uses something like a sewing machine number, draws 90 watts. Off hand, your grinder might be under powered to grind hardened steel.

[femurat]

I strongly suggest not to fiddle with metal temper. It's a too complex thing to master for us that make a pick every now and then.
If you make dozens of picks and always use the same metal source it may be worth it. I haven't invested time and efforts in that direction and am happy with my decision.

Anyway, here's the grinder I use sometimes, when I'm not too worried about the result and want a quick pick.
It's 150 Watt 220/240 Volt and runs at 2800 rpm. It's a small one and eats metal very very quickly.

Scroll down in that same thread and you'll see the wet grinder I prefer and use most of the times. Slow but precise and doesn't heat up the metal at all.

Cheers

[JIMBETHYNAME]

Maybe try using a new wheel. Sometimes, the stock wheels are bottom of the barrel.

[JIMBETHYNAME]

Also, all electric tools measure their power by amps not watts.

[Jrexx]

Thanks for the input all!

I haven't thought about using tin snips, I might give that a try since I have one laying around if I recall correctly. How much power does your bench grinder have? The width of your feeler gauge is really close to mine, so I don't have to remove much more than you have to.

My grinder has a 1/3 HP motor on it, but I'm never really loading the motor, since I'm only removing a little bit of material at a time. I've annealed/hardened tools before, but for picks I make sure the work piece never gets very hot. I made some dimple picks from wire, bending/forging the end, shaping it with a file, then hardening/tempering the end so it would be springy again.

I bought a whole bunch of the HPC flat stock, but I haven't used it for picks, since the feeler gauge stock works well. Anyway, here's some snipped out blanks...

That looks really nice, it definitely would save me a lot of time. I tried to cut with some kind of scissors used for cutting zinc, but the result wasn't great. It seemed hard to get a clean cut. Could you tell me what kind if snips you're exactly using?

For annealing steel heat it cherry red then lay it aside to cool slowly. Annealed, it will be as soft as it can be. To harden and temper you could look for a YouTube video by Eddie the Wire on pick making. Near the end of the video he goes over heat treating with a propane torch. The short version is you bring it to cherry red then quench in a liquid (everyone who does it has their secret recipie, I use tap water). At that point it will be as hard as, and as brittle as, a file. To soften some to reduce brittleness one tempers the metal. Typically by polishing the pick then slowly heating until it turns colors, stopping at a given color then setting aside to cool slowly. Yellow or blue are popular colors to temper to.

My bench grinder, an old Montgomery-Wards PowerKraft, uses 682 watts. My belt grinder uses 621 watts. My Foredom tool (basically an industrial strength flexible-shaft Dremel tool) uses 92 watts. My Foley-Belsaw 200, that uses something like a sewing machine number, draws 90 watts. Off hand, your grinder might be under powered to grind hardened steel.

I did some research, and to me it seems a bit of a hassle, so I'm tempted to buy a more powerful bench grinder if necessary. I think you might be right about it being underpowered.

I strongly suggest not to fiddle with metal temper. It's a too complex thing to master for us that make a pick every now and then.
If you make dozens of picks and always use the same metal source it may be worth it. I haven't invested time and efforts in that direction and am happy with my decision.

Anyway, here's the grinder I use sometimes, when I'm not too worried about the result and want a quick pick.
It's 150 Watt 220/240 Volt and runs at 2800 rpm. It's a small one and eats metal very very quickly.

Scroll down in that same thread and you'll see the wet grinder I prefer and use most of the times. Slow but precise and doesn't heat up the metal at all.

Cheers

Yeah, to me it seemed that metal temper doesn't go without quite a lot of trial and error. Your bench grinder seems to be quite similar to mine when it comes to power, what material you're using to make your picks?

Maybe try using a new wheel. Sometimes, the stock wheels are bottom of the barrel.

I'll keep that in mind, thanks for the tip.