"dead core" locks similar to Master

[tpark]

With American padlocks, if you pick the lock with the shackle out, you don't have to fight with the spring. The Commando lock I have, while fun to pick (not so hard, gives good feedback) has no shackle spring, so it doesn't pop open when the key is turned. As Gordon noted, there's no . Actually, a lot of locks have no shackle spring - some of the Mul t Locks don't, S&G environmental locks don't, Master LOTO locks with the plastic shackle don't. The plastic LOTO locks I have have no actuator spring, but you also don't want to turn the core too far otherwise you end up with a rattle, since there are holes in the core that allow the pins to drop out.

I have no term for locks with no actuator spring either.

[dontlook]

The 410 is fun and lightweight relative to the American 1100s, which is nice for those of us that toss a locket in our pockets for practice. It does suck that there are a number of conditions that lead to the core spinning 180º and ejecting key pins into the open plastic lock body. I feel like this could be solved with simple mold changes, so maybe it is intentional?

If this happens you can cut the body open(since it is just plastic), and carefully reassemble the lock. You may have to use a turning tool to lift the driver pins out of the bottom of the keyway back into the shell. The core fits into some other Master padlock bodies, you could just pick the core, or you could glue/band the boy back together depending on how you opened it.

[gumptrick]

Ah, the 410. As many others have said it's so odd that Master's most secure core (currently produced one, anyway) ends up in as plastic LOTO lock. They do seem pretty ideal for a practice lock though: cheap, lightweight, and relatively challenging.

I don't really care for the cheap feel of the plastic body, but I have been picking on the 6-pin American LOTO locks which as far as I know have the same 6-pin core with security pins. I can open them but I'm not exactly fast at it (yet). I think those are a nice compromise. They do cost a little more than the 410, and they're also a bit heavier, but they're still a fairly small lock so I would consider them pocket friendly. And at least to me the aluminum construction feels a lot better in the hand than the plastic ones. I haven't had a chance to play with them yet but I ordered a couple of aluminum-body PacLocks in a similar design.

With American padlocks, if you pick the lock with the shackle out, you don't have to fight with the spring

I noticed that myself a couple evenings ago. And it's not just Americans. I have a few other locks that behave the same way.

[nite0wl]

what's a dead core

ahh BosnianBill.. not the first word he's invented! I'd still call it something else...

So for us noob's (yes, me) What do you call it?

I don't know that I personally have a name for it.

If we look at the American Lock service pdf, it shows padlocks with and without springs on the actuators.

http://www.americanlock.com/pdfs/A-004_ ... Manual.pdf

I guess to start, I instincitevly want to call that part a cam, and if they were opposing spring loaded arms going into the cutouts on the shackle, most of us call them locking dogs.

As for the spring loaded actuator, when you turn the key ot loads the spring for the purpose of spinning the cylinder back to the locked position when you press the shackle down to relock the padlock.

Im not sure off hand why certain padlocks dont have the return spring on the actuator but I suspect it may be to do with key retaining or non key retaining actuators (1/2 moon vs 1/4 moon) I do have an American Lock with the spring on the actuator but it is not key retaining...

So what would I call a padlock that has no spring on the actuator? Im still not sure. A padlock with no return spring? I think thats as good as I can come up with for today.

Squelchtone

For American Lock, the Non-Key-Retaining (NKR) cams have a return spring wrapped around them to force them back to the locked position once the shackle is closed since the plug can only exert force on them to open the lock, the plug can then freely rotate back to the locked position; the Key Retaining (or Non-Removable Key/NRK in American Lock parlance) has no return spring as the plug and cam are fully engaged and turn together with the ball bearings and shackle heel preventing them from returning to the locked position until the shackle is closed (or removed entirely).

For the OP, if you have American Lock padlocks, buy some of the key retaining cams to swap in, then lubricate well. There is still more friction than the Master 570 but it is the closest I can think of to what you are referring to without factory modifications.

[gumptrick]

For the OP, if you have American Lock padlocks, buy some of the key retaining cams to swap in, then lubricate well. There is still more friction than the Master 570 but it is the closest I can think of to what you are referring to without factory modifications.

Thanks, that's exactly the sort of information that I was looking for.
I do have several American padlocks so I'll take a look at swapping the cams. And the nice thing about using those is that they can have 6-pin cores.

[nite0wl]

For the OP, if you have American Lock padlocks, buy some of the key retaining cams to swap in, then lubricate well. There is still more friction than the Master 570 but it is the closest I can think of to what you are referring to without factory modifications.

Thanks, that's exactly the sort of information that I was looking for.
I do have several American padlocks so I'll take a look at swapping the cams. And the nice thing about using those is that they can have 6-pin cores.

Make sure to take a look at the Service Manual Squelchtone linked to earlier in the thread to find the part numbers you need. There are a few places on line that will happily sell you some for just a few dollars a piece. Aside from getting the ball bearings seated the cam swap procedure is not overly difficult and doesn't require any tools that you shouldn't already have, the service manual also details the process so you can get an idea of what needs to be done before you actually have to try it for real.

[gumptrick]

Thanks for the suggestion, I'll check out that manual.

I'm sure I have all the tools required; I own a machine shop and I work on a lot of high-end laboratory equipment so I can't imagine I am lacking anything unless it requires a specialized locksmith tool.

If I need parts I'm sure I can get them from my local locksmith.

[GWiens2001]

As for getting the ball bearings seated, use a little silicone paste grease. It will hold the bearings in place while you install the cam, and lubricate them as well.

Gordon

[gumptrick]

As for getting the ball bearings seated, use a little silicone paste grease. It will hold the bearings in place while you install the cam, and lubricate them as well.

Gordon

Just like rebuilding the valve body in an automatic transmission! That's a very handy trick which has saved me a great deal of frustration over the years. Nice to to see it applies to locks too!

[GWiens2001]

As for getting the ball bearings seated, use a little silicone paste grease. It will hold the bearings in place while you install the cam, and lubricate them as well.

Gordon

Just like rebuilding the valve body in an automatic transmission! That's a very handy trick which has saved me a great deal of frustration over the years. Nice to to see it applies to locks too!

When rebuilding an automatic transmission valve body, I use Vaseline (petroleum jelly) or Assembly Lube (which is petroleum jelly with blue color added) instead of silicone paste. As you know, the Vaseline melts at very low temperature, then diffuses so much in the tranny fluid that it might as well not be there.

Good knowing there are a few other wrenches around here!

Gordon

[gumptrick]

I use Vaseline

I did the same. Not so much because of its melting point, but because it will freely mix with the oil-based transmission fluid. Silicone grease would be a bad idea in a valve body because it will never mix with the trans fluid and instead would make an emulsion. There would be so little of it that it probably wouldn't hurt, but I wouldn't want to take that chance. I didn't bother to differentiate materials since that's a bit off-topic, but the concept of using the thick grease to hold parts in place is the same. It's even handy for holding tiny springs in place when gunsmithing as well.

Good knowing there are a few other wrenches around here!

Agreed! I did a lot of wrenching on cars when I was in college--it was a great way to pay the bills. I also got into 4x4s, and then motorcycles, but it became apparent that I had too many expensive hobbies so I needed to cut back somewhere!

[GWiens2001]

I use Vaseline

I did the same. Not so much because of its melting point, but because it will freely mix with the oil-based transmission fluid. Silicone grease would be a bad idea in a valve body because it will never mix with the trans fluid and instead would make an emulsion. There would be so little of it that it probably wouldn't hurt, but I wouldn't want to take that chance. I didn't bother to differentiate materials since that's a bit off-topic, but the concept of using the thick grease to hold parts in place is the same. It's even handy for holding tiny springs in place when gunsmithing as well.

Good knowing there are a few other wrenches around here!

Agreed! I did a lot of wrenching on cars when I was in college--it was a great way to pay the bills. I also got into 4x4s, and then motorcycles, but it became apparent that I had too many expensive hobbies so I needed to cut back somewhere!

If you think locks are a cheaper hobby than cars, trucks and motorcycles, you ARE a beginner!

Gordon

[gumptrick]

If you think locks are a cheaper hobby than cars, trucks and motorcycles, you ARE a beginner!

Yep, you hit the nail on the head there. Despite being a beginner I'm already starting to see exactly what you mean!

I can buy an awful lot of locks for what I had previously spent on my motorcycles and trucks. A set of Marchesini magnesium wheels for my Ducati would pay for an awful lot of locks... But then again, a lot of the fancy European locks I've been drooling over certainly aren't cheap.

[GWiens2001]

Just wait until you get sucked into safe locks. Then key machines so you can make keys for your locks. Guess now you need key blanks. And impressioning stuff...

OK, sorry for derailing the thread.

Gordon

[gumptrick]

I'm doing my best to stick with padlocks, but I already know that's not going to last. First I was thinking OK, pin tumbers only, but there are just so many interesting dimple locks that I'd like to play with. And there's also a lot of interesting Euro cylinders that can't be fitted into padlocks....so I can already see the slippery slope below me!

Key machine? Yeah, I'm already thinking about that. And kicking myself for not grabbing one years ago. My first job was at a little mom-n-pop hardware store. One of my duties was rekeying locks (Ace, Schlage, and Kwikset were all we sold/serviced). The owner of the store had a penchant for finding other hardware stores that were going out of business and would buy up store fixtures for use in his store. He was a bit of klepto, and despite the fact we were a small store, he owned no less than nine key machines. We only had three of them set up and ready to go. Most of the time we only used one of them; the others only came into play when someone came in and needed a great many copies done at once; the rest were sitting in a storage room. I'm sure I could have bought one from him for next to nothing, but at the time I had little interest in making my own keys. Now I'm thinking about what kind of challenge locks I might assemble.... Come to think of it, he also had a manual "punch" type machine for Schlage keys which we never used.