Schlage Deadbolts vs Doorknobs

[dojo]

Hello,

I'm an hobbyist locksmith/lockpicker/weekend warrior. I went through one of my first projects at home, re-keying my Schlage door locks with a cheap kit I got on amazon, which made dumping out the pins, dropping in new pins really simple and color coded. Basically as easy as painting by number.

I have successfully disassembled a few Schlage deadbolts, and some Schlage entry locks that have interior mechanisms identical to schlage deadbolts, and I noticed the pins don't quite line up the same within deadbolts. If I use the correct sequence of pins, dropping them in / on top of the proper key, I do not get flush pins at the top of the tumbler.

I'm assuming this is normal? And that the Schlage deadbolts have different geometry compared to the doorknobs?

2 more questions:

1). If I were to buy a better kit, which one would you guys recommend?
2). If I created a custom pin sequence, and only had that pin sequence (say 4,1,3,5,8 as an arbitrary example), what place will actually cut custom keys for me? Home Depot seemed clueless when I asked, but perhaps that was just the employee I was talking to.


Thanks for the guidance!

[GWiens2001]

Any locksmith can cut you custom keys to code.

As far as I know, Schlage pins should be the same no matter the format (except SFIC, of course). So if the locks are genuine Schlage, not just knockoff locks that use the Schlage C keyway, then the same keys should use the same pins.

Gordon

[Silverado]

I have never run into a hardware store associate who knows what cutting to code even is. Likely the extent of their knowledge is "Old key go in here, new key go in there, press button!" You will need to talk to a locksmith for that.
Before you try to make a custom bitted keyway you should do some research on the manufacturer's MACS (maximum adjacent cut specification) so you don't end up with a lock that does not work at all.

[dojo]

thanks for the advice Silverado, I have read about the MACS already, and watched a video on it. Will definitely take this into consideration.

@Gordon,

I can confirm this is not SFIC. I do believe they are genuine schlage as well, as I have purchased a subset of the locks, and they behave identical to the existing deadbolts in my home.
I'm not sure what would cause this, but all the deadbolts, plus one other schlage keypad/keyed entry lock all have the same deadbolt internals, and all of them show the same issue of non-flush pins when inserted into the same sequence. Pins all line up flush in the non-deadbolt schlage door locks. Something else must be going on, I will have to check this out more.

[gumptrick]

I have never run into a hardware store associate who knows what cutting to code even is. Likely the extent of their knowledge is "Old key go in here, new key go in there, press button!" You will need to talk to a locksmith for that.
Before you try to make a custom bitted keyway you should do some research on the manufacturer's MACS (maximum adjacent cut specification) so you don't end up with a lock that does not work at all.

I would second that. Most hardware shops know nothing about the finer details of locks/keys, they just know how to pick a matching blank and press the button.

As for pins matching the key precisely I can weigh in a little bit on that. My first job involved a lot of re-keying of Schlage (and Kwikset) locks. We never relied on simply matching up the factory cuts with the supposedly correct pins for either maker. Instead we had a LAB .003 kit and we'd pick-and-choose each individual pin to see what fit flush in the core. The "cut numbers" were never consulted because there was often some variability in the depth of the cuts so sometimes the "theoretically correct" pin was slightly too long or too short. Also, if we were working off of a used key then it could be tricky to figure out what the proper cut actually was supposed to be. We did have gauges for both Schlage and Kwikset and more often than not they caused more confusion than they solved. When you put a customer's used key in the gauge it would very often fit between two numbers so you were never sure which of the two was the correct cut. Even with a brand new key straight out of the package there was often confusion regarding the gauge. Ignoring all that and simply selecting the best fitting pins from the LAB assortment was foolproof.

In my experience the deadbolts had the same specs as the doorknobs. However this was 20 years ago so perhaps things have changed since then.

[Robotnik]

I have never run into a hardware store associate who knows what cutting to code even is. Likely the extent of their knowledge is "Old key go in here, new key go in there, press button!" You will need to talk to a locksmith for that.
Before you try to make a custom bitted keyway you should do some research on the manufacturer's MACS (maximum adjacent cut specification) so you don't end up with a lock that does not work at all.

I would second that. Most hardware shops know nothing about the finer details of locks/keys, they just know how to pick a matching blank and press the button.

As for pins matching the key precisely I can weigh in a little bit on that. My first job involved a lot of re-keying of Schlage (and Kwikset) locks. We never relied on simply matching up the factory cuts with the supposedly correct pins for either maker. Instead we had a LAB .003 kit and we'd pick-and-choose each individual pin to see what fit flush in the core. The "cut numbers" were never consulted because there was often some variability in the depth of the cuts so sometimes the "theoretically correct" pin was slightly too long or too short. Also, if we were working off of a used key then it could be tricky to figure out what the proper cut actually was supposed to be. We did have gauges for both Schlage and Kwikset and more often than not they caused more confusion than they solved. When you put a customer's used key in the gauge it would very often fit between two numbers so you were never sure which of the two was the correct cut. Even with a brand new key straight out of the package there was often confusion regarding the gauge. Ignoring all that and simply selecting the best fitting pins from the LAB assortment was foolproof.

In my experience the deadbolts had the same specs as the doorknobs. However this was 20 years ago so perhaps things have changed since then.

While I do this from time to time with locks for picking/collecting, do be aware that deviating from manufacturer pin specifications working on locks in service as a professional locksmith can saddle you with quite a bit of liability in the event of a failure.

[gumptrick]

While I do this from time to time with locks for picking/collecting, do be aware that deviating from manufacturer pin specifications working on locks in service as a professional locksmith can saddle you with quite a bit of liability in the event of a failure.

I'm sure you're right about that. I am certainly not a pro locksmith, and that job I was talking about from years ago was a little mom-n-pop hardware store. We did key copies and re-keying but that was the extent of our "locksmith services". I just thought I'd share what little experience I had on the matter--I don't claim to be an expert.

[billdeserthills]

The thing I have noticed is that Schlage has now stopped using brass for the cylinder/plug in their
cheaper locksets gr2 & gr3. Instead they are using all pot metal and they are making the pot metal
plug (keyhole) slightly smaller in diameter. This makes it look like the correct sized pins are actually
a bit too high. I simply use the next size smaller pin (.005 less), although using the normal size pins will work
fine in these cheap, crappy pot metal cylinders. Of course since the cylinders are now even smaller, this makes
the new schlage locks even easier to pick and even easier to break into than they were before

Also, in my opinion, since I can buy all brass cylinders from china, there is little reason for anyone
to continue paying schlage's crazy high prices for pot-metal junk

I'm sure the CEO at Schlage will be receiving an extra large bonus this year, I'm telling all my clients
just how junky Schlage has become


Schlage cheapening their products since Kwikset came around

[cledry]

What Bill said.

[tpark]

If you're getting a key cut to code, the Schlage key has a different root width and cut angle than the universal cutter, but keys made on a universal cutter work OK even though they are not to spec. I bought a specific LAB Schlage pinning kit, and it works with the Schlage keys. Any locksmith should be able to code cut keys for you.

I've used the LAB pins with various Schlage locks and GMS mortise cylinders and have had no problems.

Edit: The lab pins work with keys cut with a universal cutter as well.

[Gantry]

I have never run into a hardware store associate who knows what cutting to code even is. Likely the extent of their knowledge is "Old key go in here, new key go in there, press button!" You will need to talk to a locksmith for that.
Before you try to make a custom bitted keyway you should do some research on the manufacturer's MACS (maximum adjacent cut specification) so you don't end up with a lock that does not work at all.

As Silverado said if you want a custom cut key go to a lock smith. As some one who's worked for Home Depot for over 28yr. many of them in hardware I will agree with him. Over the years I've DUPLICATED 1000's of keys and re-keyed hundreds of locks (Kwikset, schlage, & defiant). We're not lock smiths! We only do the simplest re-keying (only new locks & no master pinning). We don't need to know how to cut a key to code because our
key machines only duplicate other keys. We probably have between 100 -150 different blanks, and there all your avg. run of the mill house, car, mailbox, and basic paddle lock keys. So don't look down on the guy that's
cutting your key and trying to help out 2 other cust. at the same time as he (or she) puts the old key here, new key there and pushes the button...

[jimu57]

There is a lot of junk coming from China. I have had Schlage keyed cylinders with same problem. I also had cylinders that would not use anything longer than a Schlage #6 pin. Do you have "Schlage" locks or some unknown brand with a Schlage keyway?

[billdeserthills]

There is a lot of junk coming from China. I have had Schlage keyed cylinders with same problem. I also had cylinders that would not use anything longer than a Schlage #6 pin. Do you have "Schlage" locks or some unknown brand with a Schlage keyway?

Sounds like those "Ferum" locks my Dad used to buy from Septon, Inc

I still have a bunch that I quit selling years ago--They have more brass in them than Schlage's locks do now

[Silverado]

I have never run into a hardware store associate who knows what cutting to code even is. Likely the extent of their knowledge is "Old key go in here, new key go in there, press button!" You will need to talk to a locksmith for that.
Before you try to make a custom bitted keyway you should do some research on the manufacturer's MACS (maximum adjacent cut specification) so you don't end up with a lock that does not work at all.

As Silverado said if you want a custom cut key go to a lock smith. As some one who's worked for Home Depot for over 28yr. many of them in hardware I will agree with him. Over the years I've DUPLICATED 1000's of keys and re-keyed hundreds of locks (Kwikset, schlage, & defiant). We're not lock smiths! We only do the simplest re-keying (only new locks & no master pinning). We don't need to know how to cut a key to code because our
key machines only duplicate other keys. We probably have between 100 -150 different blanks, and there all your avg. run of the mill house, car, mailbox, and basic paddle lock keys. So don't look down on the guy that's
cutting your key and trying to help out 2 other cust. at the same time as he (or she) puts the old key here, new key there and pushes the button...

This. Please do not think I was discounting the folks who are copying keys at the hardware store. Neither should you feel the need to think of them as inept. They are doing a job and that job does not require them to know how to be a full-fledged locksmith, that deserves respect. On a side note, I once met a hardware store (mom and pop shop) key copier who I asked about a key for a truck-bed toolbox actually take the wafers out of the cylinder and attempt to cut me a key for it. Turned out it was more of a tryout key/jiggler, when all I really wanted was a blank...but I give him a lot of credit for a solid, and mostly successful, effort!

[jimu57]

The thing I have noticed is that Schlage has now stopped using brass for the cylinder/plug in their
cheaper locksets gr2 & gr3. Instead they are using all pot metal and they are making the pot metal
plug (keyhole) slightly smaller in diameter. This makes it look like the correct sized pins are actually
a bit too high. I simply use the next size smaller pin (.005 less), although using the normal size pins will work
fine in these cheap, crappy pot metal cylinders. Of course since the cylinders are now even smaller, this makes
the new schlage locks even easier to pick and even easier to break into than they were before

Also, in my opinion, since I can buy all brass cylinders from china, there is little reason for anyone
to continue paying schlage's crazy high prices for pot-metal junk

I'm sure the CEO at Schlage will be receiving an extra large bonus this year, I'm telling all my clients
just how junky Schlage has become


Schlage cheapening their products since Kwikset came around

Are cylinders that you are speaking of, true Schlage cylinders or aftermarket stuff with simply a Schlage keyway?