small master pins caught in kwikset contractor holes

[emoyer]

Hello. Searched a bit on the site for information about this, please forgive me if I missed it.

Have been playing with some Kwikset cylinders that have been in use for a while. It seems that if these are a bit worn, and it is necessary to use small master pins (which I understand should be avoided if possible), the master pins will get caught in the extra set of holes for trapping the little balls used for contractor keying, and bind everything up.

(Or at least this is my current guess about what is happening, and I will not be surprised if I am totally wrong.)

Is this just a sign that the cylinder is worn past the point of use? Or if not, what am I lacking in my understanding about this?

Thank you.

[GWiens2001]

Have you tried replacing the key pins?

Gordon

[jimu57]

Doesn't make sense. If worn, anything, you would need larger pins. Never use smaller pins or larger. Use the right size.

[RedE]

First off, welcome to LP101.

Regarding your locks, I've noticed a similar issue with masterkeyed Kwiksets. While it hasn't been due to the pins getting trapped into the PK/construction ball holes, I have noticed that a #1 master pin, which is the smallest size, has a tendency to bind in the plug as the the lock and the pins wear down. This sort of problem could definitely be happening your case.

Are you equipped to replace the pins in these locks or able to pin them up to different key combinations?

[billdeserthills]

First off, welcome to LP101.

Regarding your locks, I've noticed a similar issue with masterkeyed Kwiksets. While it hasn't been due to the pins getting trapped into the PK/construction ball holes, I have noticed that a #1 master pin, which is the smallest size, has a tendency to bind in the plug as the the lock and the pins wear down. This sort of problem could definitely be happening your case.

Are you equipped to replace the pins in these locks or able to pin them up to different key combinations?

Having the #1 master pin slide around between the cylinder/plug is a problem for most, if not all manufacturers.
One thing you can do is to replace the top pin over the hole with a #1 kwikset bottom pin and just
leave the #1 masterpin out of that cylinder hole. The lock should work fine, however the almost non-existant
security of the Kwikset lock will become slightly lower (if that is possible)

[emoyer]

My thanks to everyone who replied, and for the welcome. I have been meaning to fill out my introduction but haven't done it yet.

The situation I described is with all new pins in the lock (from a newly purchased LAB set,) and the master pins are both #2. I rekeyed the cylinder, and mastered it for a given master (32222). I chose 32424 for the change key to avoid having #1 master pins. I cut the change key from depth and space keys and checked it with dial calipers. The change and master keys work fine in another, newer cylinder that I pinned the same way.

The reason I was thinking it had something to do with the contractor holes is that it only happens when I turn the plug in that direction, about as far as seems would bring the contractor holes in line with the bible. And if I set up the cylinder just for the change key, with no master pins at all, it works fine. Also, it only binds when using the master key, I assume because then the master pins are above the plug instead of in it.

And yes, even as a complete neophyte in this area, I am not impressed with Kwikset locks. But I guess they provide something less demanding for someone like me to get started with.

Thanks.

[jimu57]

I think that bitting 32222 might be a little too easy to rake open.

[demux]

If you have the equipment to do so, you might check the diameter of the pins vs. the diameter of the holes in the plug for the CK balls. In theory, those holes are supposed to be a smaller diameter so that regular pins don't drop into there. However if you're using smaller diameter pins (e.g. you somehow managed to get the LAB IC kit instead of the Kwikset kit or one of their two universal kits, or the pins are just mismanufactured), or if the holes have worn and are now larger than spec, then I could see something like what you describe happening. Also, the Kwikset OEM pins do have a little chamfer on both sides, I could see that potentially catching, again especially if the hole is worn. I'd suggest looking into the LAB .003 or .005 universal kit if you don't already have them.

But, all of the above notwithstanding, I do agree with others on this post that the more likely scenario (at least in the general case) is a small master pin binding between the plug and shell due to the horrible manufacturing tolerances of Kwikset locks.

[jimu57]

Fill the holes with epoxy

[tjohn]

Pls don't do that ^

[GWiens2001]

Pls don't do that ^

Yeah, definitely no epoxy. Use Gorilla Glue.

Gordon

[emoyer]

Thank you all for the input.

I actually thought filling the holes was a great idea, but based on posts after that, I am thinking my leg was being pulled.

I am pretty sure the issue involves the CK holes, because I made the lock bind again and then removed the spring retainer from the bible and dumped the driver pins, and the CK holes were right in line with the chambers.

For comparison I removed the plug from the cylinder that works fine when pinned the same way, and found that the plug is very different. I took a photo comparing them, but it is hard to display here so I will try to describe it. If you view the plug from what would be the face of the lock, the holes the bottom pins ride in are drilled "vertically" at 12:00. In the plug that works (besides the fact that it has slots in it so that it looks like it has "fins",) the CK holes are drilled "horizontally" at 3:00. So they form circles on the surface of the plug. In the plug that does NOT work, the CK holes are also drilled horizontally, but at 1:30 or maybe 2:00. So not only do they form ovals on the surface of the plug as manufactured, but it seems this might accelerate deformation of their openings.

Anyway, still playing with it, but that is something I noticed that seems relevant

Thank you.

[billdeserthills]

I think I've seen this before, last time I used my pin hole deburrer in the little hole that
was being blocked, and then the pin just rode right over it. Alternatively you can
use a round file, or the side of a flat file to make a bit of a 'ramp' over the hole(s),
or just file it down, until the pins won't catch anymore

[demux]

Or, if the holes are just too wide but are the right depth, you could fill them by putting CK balls in them.

[Evan]

Thank you all for the input.

I actually thought filling the holes was a great idea, but based on posts after that, I am thinking my leg was being pulled.

I am pretty sure the issue involves the CK holes, because I made the lock bind again and then removed the spring retainer from the bible and dumped the driver pins, and the CK holes were right in line with the chambers.

For comparison I removed the plug from the cylinder that works fine when pinned the same way, and found that the plug is very different. I took a photo comparing them, but it is hard to display here so I will try to describe it. If you view the plug from what would be the face of the lock, the holes the bottom pins ride in are drilled "vertically" at 12:00. In the plug that works (besides the fact that it has slots in it so that it looks like it has "fins",) the CK holes are drilled "horizontally" at 3:00. So they form circles on the surface of the plug. In the plug that does NOT work, the CK holes are also drilled horizontally, but at 1:30 or maybe 2:00. So not only do they form ovals on the surface of the plug as manufactured, but it seems this might accelerate deformation of their openings.

Anyway, still playing with it, but that is something I noticed that seems relevant

Thank you.

@emoyer:

Are the pins you are using lab universal pins or are they lab Kwikset pins ?

There is a difference, the Kwikset pins are blunt on the end and the lab universal pins will have a rounded over bottom.

If you are using universal rounded over pins, they could be getting stuck in the CK ball removal chambers in the plug,

~~ Evan