I am only interested in padlock security not aesthetics. How would you rank the current production of these ASSA brands in desending quality? Please discount any economy models from each line. Did I miss any?
Abloy Fichet Medico Multilock Trioving Chubb Yale Lockwood Ruko Gerda FAB Alba
Last edited by Squelchtone on 21 Aug 2017 11:33, edited 1 time in total.
Reason:Changed title to reflect the list is lock brands under the Assa Abloy Group umbrella
I do not claim to be an expert here, but from my experience:
Top security: Abloy disc-detainers, Medeco, Mult-T-Lock interactives, and Ruko with the higher end cores. Note that both Mul-T-Lock and Ruko make different security levels of core. The MT5+ from Mult-T-Lock is very good. Likewise the higher end Rukos with the D12 and especially the Twin cores are also very good. I know you were asking only about Assa Abloy brands, but I would put the Abus Granit locks up here too (except for one low-end model that uses a normal key; I was referring to most of the Granit line which is a disc detainer), as well as the Abus 83 "Rock" series (there are a couple different sizes) which could be fitted with the Abloy Protec2 or the Bilock core.
Fichet has made some very high security locks, but there was a destructive bypass figured out for many of them so the whole 480 series was discontinued. They had two later series, the 787 and the F3D. As far as I know both are extremely high security cores though I don't know anything about the strength of the lock body. They're also virtually impossible to find, at least in my experience. If you (or anyone) knows more about current production Fichet padlocks I'd love to learn about it too.
I don't have any experience with Chubb, Alba, or Trioving personally. I know that Chubb makes some enormous but well regarded lever padlocks (the Cruiser and the Battleship), though I have never worked with them personally.
Yale and FAB are going to be mid-range offerings, nothing special. They are good, well-made locks but I wouldn't call them "high security".
Lockwood makes a very high quality lock but I am not aware of any current "high security" offerings that could compete with something like the Abloy, Abus Granit, or Ruko with a Twin core.
Another Assa-Abloy brand you might consider is Sargent. They offer two models. One is a standard pin-tumbler which is very well made (and available with a "bump proof" option) but I wouldn't call it high security. The other is the Sargent Keso; that is a much more challenging pick. I have photos of both of these uploaded here. Only downside I can see is that the Keso might not be big enough if you need a lot of mechanical strength. The core is great but these locks just aren't as huge as some of the others. http://www.lockpicking101.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=64118&p=478284#p478284
Another brand you might want to check out is Kaba. They offer some crazy good cores as well as bodies.
Also check out LockPickingLawyer's "10 biggest and baddest padlocks" video on Youtube.
Fichet discontinued the F3D product line. My guess would be due to internal component failure, as they have many small parts. Luckily, I was able to get one with keys for my collection.
Gordon
Just when you finally think you have learned it all, that is when you learn that you don't know anything yet.
GWiens2001 wrote:Fichet discontinued the F3D product line. My guess would be due to internal component failure, as they have many small parts. Luckily, I was able to get one with keys for my collection.
Gordon
I would agree, the inner workings of both the F3D and the 787 are insanely complicated. Is your F3D a padlock or some other type?
GWiens2001 wrote:Fichet discontinued the F3D product line. My guess would be due to internal component failure, as they have many small parts. Luckily, I was able to get one with keys for my collection.
Gordon
I would agree, the inner workings of both the F3D and the 787 are insanely complicated. Is your F3D a padlock or some other type?
Round door cylinders. Wish it was a padlock! And you are right about the 787 being complicated. The first one I got was not working with the key, and I had to take it apart to figure out what was wrong. Quite a few complex moving parts, but not as many as the F3D, IIRC.
Gordon
Just when you finally think you have learned it all, that is when you learn that you don't know anything yet.
Lelandwelds wrote:That video is big on shrouded padlocks. I need the taller bare shackle.
I think that some of the locks he shows are available without the tall shackle guard. I know you can get all sizes of Ruko in both a standard and "shutter" design. Mul-T-Lock is available without the guard. I don't remember if they were in his video, but I know you can get Abloy, Kaba, and the Abus Rock without the tall guard as well. Though you will find that a lot of high end padlocks will always have that tall guard or shutter type design because that is a requirement for the highest European insurance rating (CEN 6).
Oh, and Kasp is available without the tall shackle guard as well. The factory core is nothing special but that can be changed out. LPL has a video about the version with the tall guard, but you can get this exact same lock in a standard configuration. Takes a Euro profile cylinder, so there are countless options for putting a high security core in there: MT5+, Assa Twin, Medeco, Protec2, or any of the other high end Euro stuff (DOM, EVVA, etc.) I also like the fact that it has a very robust anti-drill plate for the core.
The Kasp might be an unusually cost-effective option. High end padlocks are not cheap, but the Kasp is a lot more reasonably priced than most other high end padlocks, and you could easily source a high security core to replace the factory one. Get a double Euro cylinder off Ebay (or wherever), cut it in half and you now have cores for two locks.
Here in the US, the popular ASSA-Abloy commercial lock brands (at least the ones I commonly see) are Corbin-Russwin, Medeco, Sargent, and Yale. You can get a solidly made medium security lock in any of those brands, and some have higher security offerings. If you're looking for really high end, the Abloy disc detainers (in particular the Protec and Protec2) are the way to go. Of course the more esoteric you go, the harder/more expensive it is to get keys, parts, new cylinders, etc, and the harder it is to do any of your own work on your locks.
Personally, for most of my own in-use locks, I tend to run SFIC, name-brand Best, with some of the more extreme keyway cores. I find this to be a good tradeoff for me, for several reasons. First, while not really high security, they're very well-made and likely beyond what almost any burglar/bad guy would be prepared to deal with. Second, the extreme warding makes the locks difficult to SPP, and I choose my own bittings to make raking difficult. Third, bump keys for Best (at least anything other than the A keyway) are fairly hard to find unless you cut your own. Fourth, parts are readily available and cheap enough that I basically do all my own work. Fifth, the SFIC standard allows me to easily swap/share cores between door locks, padlocks, electronic switch locks, etc. And finally, there are enough companies making SFIC products that it's easy to find the right product for any situation. For example, if I'm on a budget I can throw in a KSP or GMS core instead of a Best. If I really do want truly high security, I can throw in a Marks Hi-Security or a Medeco XT. In short, for my personal needs, I find this system to be the right combination of flexibility, security, and affordability.
RUKO and Kaba seem mostly about key control in large MK systems. All these high end Euro options add up to surprisingly high total cost. I will have to get Ebay lucky. The Abus 83/80 or Kasp are probably my choice of body. This option reminds me of the Stanley that Wayne of internet fame likes.
Can you really just cut one in half and use both halves? That REALLY opens up the Ebay options. The different lengths available are confusing. Does each brand padlock need something different? Or, does the length needed depend on how thick a door you drop it in?
The Multilock available built in rekeying option is fascinating! It is available in permanent and reversible so I suppose there are two different methods?
Demux, I use Lockwiki a lot to cut down my google searches. The ones I left off didnt seem to offer much currently in padlocks. I suppose big MK systems and access control is where the money is?
You makes some convincing points. When I learned of SFIC, I thought I had found the ideal fit for any future need. I was excited.
Reading further, I kept finding people who couldnt make SFIC work reliably. Their problems all seem to be related to accuracy. They were mostly having problems with tolerances in less expensive cores and their particular key cutting machines. I was also getting the feeling they were light in the skill or methodology needed and the white knight was too tactful to actually say it plainly.
I was planning on buying a new universal pin kit and finding a Curtis or Ilco 008 key cutter ( etc) cheap. If I need some expensive Best brand machine, my potential new hobby is a non starter. If a punch is all that is needed, I can give it a go.
Each time I read your post, each of your points becomes stronger and more resonable.
Lelandwelds wrote:Can you really just cut one in half and use both halves? That REALLY opens up the Ebay options. The different lengths available are confusing. Does each brand padlock need something different? Or, does the length needed depend on how thick a door you drop it in?
Yes you can simply cut a full-size one in half, assuming it is the correct size. Every Euro cylinder padlock that I have ever seen takes the 30mm long cylinder. So you could either buy "half cylinders" that are 30/10 size, or you could buy 30/30 full-size (double) cylinders and cut them in half. Euro cylinders do come in a variety of lengths, but the 30/30 seems to be the most popular size and are widely available on Ebay. You might have to make a minor modification to the back of the plug but that should be no big deal for someone in the welding business. Check out this video for an example:
The ones I left off didnt seem to offer much currently in padlocks. I suppose big MK systems and access control is where the money is?
A lot of brands have one or more specialties they tend to target, and each one has radically different requirements. Someone looking for locks for, say, a school or large office building is probably more concerned about key control and ease of re-keying than anything else. Hotels and apartment complexes have their own key control issues. Locks on the front door of a busy establishment need extreme durability/reliability--residential, not so much but customers are very concerned about decor. Locking up a remote industrial site might be more concerned about the ability to resist weather. If valuables are involved then physical resistance to attack becomes more of a concern.
I've noticed the same thing you did--a lot of makers (even of high security locks) tend to focus on padlocks as something as an afterthought. For example DOM (German) makes some very high security cores, but their main market is for door locks. You can buy DOM padlocks with high-security cores straight from the factory, but the locks themselves are nowhere near as robust as the cores are. It's rather ironic to see a super-high-end core in a small aluminum bodied padlock body. I think they sell them simply if someone decides they want their padlock to take the same key as their home or office. But then other the other side you get brands like Ruko and KABA that make serious high-security padlocks.
Demux makes a great comment about the SFIC, especially the BEST keyways. While those might not be as "high security" as something like an Assa Twin or a Protec2, they are very hard to pick simply due to the keyway. Not to mention they are 7-pin! A BEST core with a WB keyway would be very challenging. Those are easy to get on Ebay; there are multiple sellers offering them and they will be happy to key them to your specs. I bought a couple of them from one seller and I told him I was into locksport and to make one "easy" and the other "challenging". He certainly was able to do that! The "challenging" one ended up having some really crazy bitting & security pins as well, and no I have not been able to pick it. In fact while I have picked various BEST keyways I have never successfully picked the WB. Prices were very reasonable and I even received documentation with each core that called out all the pinning so if I wanted more of them in the future (or needed keys cut) I could simply give those specs to any locksmith.
However, I have not seen a SFIC padlock that I would call "high security". I own a few BESTs and while they are good quality locks they're not as beefy as most of the others and would not do well against a physical attack.
Another option that might work for you is the Master System 29. This has been discontinued by Master, and yeah, I know Master's lousy reputation, but these are honestly very good locks. They are very big and beefy and the cool thing is that they are interchangeable core, so you can stick whatever KiK cylinder you want in there--Medeco, CX5 aka Scorpion aka Marks, etc. Another good option would be the Master no. 19, which was the biggest padlock Master ever made. Not only is it seriously strong but this was made back before Master started cutting costs to an absurd degree and the core is no joke. It has a 6 pins, security pins, a really evil keyway, and the manufacturing tolerances are much better than the average Master. Problem is that both the 29 and the 19 have been discontinued so you'd have to get lucky and find them on Ebay or something like that.
A decent used Best Combinator (key punch) is still pricey, but it is the fastest way to accurately cut SFIC keys. Do not use a Curtis clipper to punch the keys for SFIC. You can find some deals on eBay for code machines or Best punches.
SFIC keys should always be code cut/punched. While an properly calibrated duplicator can copy SFIC keys, the tolerances are so tight that it is best to originate rather than duplicate.
Gordon
Just when you finally think you have learned it all, that is when you learn that you don't know anything yet.
Lelandwelds wrote:Reading further, I kept finding people who couldnt make SFIC work reliably. Their problems all seem to be related to accuracy. They were mostly having problems with tolerances in less expensive cores and their particular key cutting machines. I was also getting the feeling they were light in the skill or methodology needed and the white knight was too tactful to actually say it plainly.
Most likely, yes. Stated tolerances for Best cores are +/-.001", and they mean that. You can feel them getting clicky or sticky at as much as .002" or .003" out. As Gorgon said, if you have a decent code machine or punch (or know a locksmith who's willing to originate keys for you) and cut everything to code, you'll be fine. Another gotcha that doesn't seem to be discussed as much, make sure you get quality, well-known key blanks. I've encountered some of the cheaper ones where the milling for the warding has been off a few thousandths in relation to the root depth, and so even if you cut accurately on them they'd still be out of spec when they register in the core.
Since I acquired it a few months ago, I've been cutting my keys on my Framon 2. Before that, I did them on a modified Foley-Belsaw 200, and could reliably do them to within spec. It took a looooong time, but it's possible. So it's not really necessary to drop a lot of money to be able to do this yourself. Key machines, like any other tool, are as much about operator skill as anything else, at least in my opinion. I've cut bad keys on quality machines, and good keys on cheap machines. It's possible, if you know what you're doing and take your time. Wouldn't want to do any sort of large MK job that way, but for one or two at a time for personal use, sure.
Also, if you do go this way, keep in mind that SFIC takes pins that are a just slightly smaller diameter than most anything else, so you will also need a dedicated pin set.
gumptrick wrote:However, I have not seen a SFIC padlock that I would call "high security". I own a few BESTs and while they are good quality locks they're not as beefy as most of the others and would not do well against a physical attack.
Yes, agree that this is an issue. After trying several different brands, I've kind of settled on the American SFIC series. They've got good locking mechanisms (dual ball bearing), hardened shackles, and fairly beefy dimensions. I go with brass body where weather resistance is more important than security, and stainless body otherwise. Not really high security, but you'd have to at least bring the big tools to get through them in any reasonable amount of time.
gumptrick wrote:However, I have not seen a SFIC padlock that I would call "high security". I own a few BESTs and while they are good quality locks they're not as beefy as most of the others and would not do well against a physical attack.
Yes, agree that this is an issue. After trying several different brands, I've kind of settled on the American SFIC series. They've got good locking mechanisms (dual ball bearing), hardened shackles, and fairly beefy dimensions. I go with brass body where weather resistance is more important than security, and stainless body otherwise. Not really high security, but you'd have to at least bring the big tools to get through them in any reasonable amount of time.
How about the Best 91b padlock. A real beast that also provides protection for the core.
Gordon
Just when you finally think you have learned it all, that is when you learn that you don't know anything yet.
