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Physics of bumping and possible mitigation

Bump keys and lock bumping finally have their own area. Discuss making bump keys, proper bumping techniques, and countermeasures here.

Re: Physics of bumping and possible mitigation

Postby cj101 » 10 Aug 2017 10:34

You can find a very nice documention here:

http://lockwiki.com/index.php/EVVA_MCS

Another question about bumping:
Does anybody know, if there is a professional publication around.

To my knowledge, the newton cradle with n balls(distinct) can be solved quite well with herztian springs / contact mechanics.
cj101
 
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Re: Physics of bumping and possible mitigation

Postby Ralph_Goodman » 10 Aug 2017 11:25

cj101 wrote:Another question about bumping:
Does anybody know, if there is a professional publication around.

There are a lot of Defcon panels that deal with scientific principles and testing around many security topics.

But if you are looking for something like a peer reviewed scientific journal that deals with the physics of locks, I have not come across such a thing.

I would love to know if something like that does exist!
Ralph_Goodman
 
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Re: Physics of bumping and possible mitigation

Postby cj101 » 10 Aug 2017 22:35

To my understanding of the paper about newton cradle, you replace all contact points of the ball with springs. In fact the balls actually can overlap as much as you can indent them with the impact force of the adjoining ball.
When you impact the first ball, it impacts the second one and compresses it. The compression depth and pressure / force can be modelled with formulas you can find in wikipedia for hertzian springs. The formulas have to be adapted to cylinders. At the same time the ball is already accelerated. However, the impact is only transmitted with speed of sound in the metal of the pin to the other side of the pin, where it impacts the driver spring. I do not know yet if this is relevant here.
The bump key also accelerates the pin in hitting direction of bump key. So it should also hit the chamber wall and due to friction with it, some energy should be lost.

What do you think?
cj101
 
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Re: Physics of bumping and possible mitigation

Postby unjust » 17 Aug 2017 13:14

i still think it's not newtons cradle.

it's like a cueball following a stripe and rebounding off the bumper while the stripe stops. that model explains master keyed behavior, and a host of other nuances.
unjust
 
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Location: Minneapolis MN

Re: Physics of bumping and possible mitigation

Postby gumptrick » 17 Aug 2017 13:22

unjust wrote:i still think it's not newtons cradle.

it's like a cueball following a stripe and rebounding off the bumper while the stripe stops. that model explains master keyed behavior, and a host of other nuances.


You're right that the "newton's cradle" isn't an exact match for the way bumping works, but like you posted earlier in the thread the cradle is a great example to explain the basic concept to someone.

It's been years and years since I took the relevant classes in engineering school, but modeling the kinetic behavior of bumping would be quite easy to do mathematically. Then you could play around with different masses of pins, rates of springs, etc, and see how things change. But I hate to admit it's been so long since I learned that I'm not a position to do it and I doubt the software that I learned to use is even around anymore. But I'd imagine it couldn't be too hard to find an engineering student who is up on their equations of motion to knock that out. It's a pretty simple spring-mass system. I know I was assigned far more complex problems as homework back then!
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Re: Physics of bumping and possible mitigation

Postby unjust » 18 Aug 2017 8:58

i wonder if autodesk fusion 360 could run that. iirc it's one of the things they've sent people to after they dropped simulation machanical. it's free for personal use, i've been fiddling with it, but haven't' had the time to really dig in.
unjust
 
Posts: 372
Joined: 7 Nov 2006 15:19
Location: Minneapolis MN

Re: Physics of bumping and possible mitigation

Postby gumptrick » 18 Aug 2017 9:06

unjust wrote:i wonder if autodesk fusion 360 could run that. iirc it's one of the things they've sent people to after they dropped simulation machanical. it's free for personal use, i've been fiddling with it, but haven't' had the time to really dig in.


Probably. Though to me it would be much faster to write the equation of motion & then use a math program to solve. Something like Matlab, MAPLE, etc. There's no need to draw and solid models, it's just a simple spring-mass system.
gumptrick
 
Posts: 266
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Location: Texas, USA

Re: Physics of bumping and possible mitigation

Postby unjust » 18 Aug 2017 9:57

heh, the model is much faster for me than the math now.
unjust
 
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Joined: 7 Nov 2006 15:19
Location: Minneapolis MN

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