KIK or Mortise locks - Residential & business

[gumptrick]

I'll be moving to a new property later this year and of course that means it's time to change out the locks. I have some thoughts in mind but most of my residential experience is about 2 decades old at this point so I figured I'd consult with those more knowledgeable than I.

Here's what I'm looking for:
-Mechanical locks (nothing electronic)
-Residential application in Texas, USA. I can use KIK or mortise. And I would also like to be able to get padlocks with the same key as well.
-I'm looking for improved protection against quick-and-dirty attacks like raking or bumping, but I don't need anything that's crazy high security. Imagine something better than a standard Kwikset or Schlage, but nothing super high end.
-No need for master keying
-I would like it to be somewhat difficult for an unauthorized person to copy the key if I need to lend keys to someone for some reason.
-No special environmental concerns.

I'm looking at a budget of approximately $50 per cylinder (roughly). Looking at Schlage Primus, CX5 aka Scorpion, Medeco, etc. Any others to consider in this price range?

[billdeserthills]

If you think Medeco is available at this price point, why not also look into ASSA,
Multi-Lock & Bi-Lock

[gumptrick]

If you think Medeco is available at this price point, why not also look into ASSA,
Multi-Lock & Bi-Lock

I freely admit I have no idea what Medeco cores cost new. That's why I'm asking! But given what I have seen what they sell for on Ebay I figured they were pretty close to my figure. I take this to mean that they are actually far more than $50 a pop? I've seen Bilock and the Protec2's sell for well over $120 so that's certainly out of the question (and more security than I need, honestly).

[billdeserthills]

If you think Medeco is available at this price point, why not also look into ASSA,
Multi-Lock & Bi-Lock

I freely admit I have no idea what Medeco cores cost new. That's why I'm asking! But given what I have seen what they sell for on Ebay I figured they were pretty close to my figure. I take this to mean that they are actually far more than $50 a pop? I've seen Bilock and the Protec2's sell for well over $120 so that's certainly out of the question (and more security than I need, honestly).

Last time I bought new Medeco my cost through a distributor was more than $50, even for a mortise cylinder
I used to buy Assa locks for less than Medeco, but they were still over $50 apiece.

If you can be happy with used than you pay less,
you can buy from E-Bay, good luck getting everything keyed alike
www.securitysnobs.com
has decentprices on some used Assa mortise cylinders, their new stuff looks pricey

[gumptrick]

A bit of an update here.

I swung by my local locksmith and I posed the same question that I did in my original post in this topic. Locksmith recommended Kwikset Titan and Schlage Everest (normal Everest, not Primus). I know about the Schlage, but I wasn't so sure about the Kwikset so I asked them to show me one & explain its features.

It's obvious that the Titan models have changed over the years. Back in the mid-90's when I was selling hardware and rekeying locks the Titan was like the normal kwikset but it had 6 pins instead of 5. Otherwise it was exactly the same--same KW1 profile keyway, same lack of security pins. Only difference was that the keyblank was a little longer to accommodate that 6th pin. The "current" Titan that the employee showed me was only a 5-pin lock. I asked about what security features it had compared to a normal kwikset and the employee kept repeating something vague about the shape of the key closer to the bow. Something about how some part of the key shoulder would fit into the lock. I said: "oh, is that some kind of interactive element or extra locking mechanism beyond the normal pins?" Employee answers yes. But when I look at the lock I can't see anything that would suggest that. There are no moving parts in the core which might be engaged by the shoulder of the key. The employee proceeds to explain "they're really hard to pick--I KNOW from experience". But when I ask why they are hard to pick and suggest things like: "does it have security pins?" the Employee is looking at me as though I was speaking Martian. He can't explain why they are hard to pick, he just keeps repeating that "he knows they're hard from experience". They keyway did look more restrictive than the KW1, but as far as I could tell it was just a normal 5-pin lock, and the only thing unusual about it is that you can swap cores using a control key, a bit like SFIC. I got the impression that the lock is nothing special and the employee, at the very least, doesn't understand his own product.

Am I missing something here, or am I correct in writing off the Titan as being at best a marginal improvement over a standard Kwikset?

[GWiens2001]

You can swap cores with a control key with a Kwikset Titan? Will have to look into that. Have not spent any time with Titan, but IIRC, the face of the lock only has the plug, nothing with the bible showing. Unless they went to a driverless system like BiLock, can't see a control key being used to swap cores.

Gordon

[GWiens2001]

Checked into it. It is not a control key. You remove the knobset from the door and remove the spindle. Then you use your normal key and turn it 180 degrees. Then pull on the key and the core, along with the face of the lock, comes out of the knob.

So the lock still needs to be removed from the door before the core can be removed. It really like an IC.

Think you are right. He does not know his product and was just blowing smoke.

Gordon

[demux]

I have a Titan in my collection, and would agree with Gordon's assessment. Nothing high security going on here. The "control key" is really just a standard operating key with an extra notch cut out of the bottom of the key blade, somewhere about 1/3 to 1/2 of the way down. This allows an extra pin to fall into the bottom of the plug when rotated to a certain location (not quite 180 degrees, but close). There are actually (at least in the one I have, which is from a deadbolt) kind of two shells to this lock, and inner and outer one. That extra pin locks the inner shell (which contains the face, bible, and plug) to the outer one. This might be the "extra element" your guy was thinking about, but that extra pin is not involved at all in the normal operation of the lock, and does nothing to increase security or reduce pickability.

[gumptrick]

The lock the employee showed me clearly had a control key. He unpacked the boxed lock to show me and inside was a keyring containing two normal keys and then a 3rd one which looked very different. It was bare brass, had a very narrow (nearly nonexistent) bow. There were a bunch of numbers stamped on what little "bow" there was. I didn't get a close look but I assume that was a bitting code. There was a rather obvious square notch in the bottom of the control key, opposite the cuts for the pins. He stuck the control key into the lock, turned it, and the core (along with the face of the lock) came out. Aside from the fact that the face came out with the core it worked exactly like a SFIC (Best, etc.) control key. Normal keys operate the lock, the special key removes the core.

The lock was disassembled when he did this. It didn't appear to me that there was anything stopping someone from doing that while the lock was installed--the mounting screws didn't appear to go into the core/face--but I admit I didn't get a close look at that.

This isn't the best pic but it's the closest I could find online. That narrow brass key is the control key, and it pulls the core just like SFIC.


I don't really care about that aspect of it. I don't need the ability to rapidly swap cores, I'm just looking for a step up in security to a standard hardware store lock and to make it a little challenging for someone to make unauthorized dupes. I'm not trying to secure Fort Konx, I just want to prevent raking/bumping and someone getting copies at Wal-Mart or Home Depot.

My current thought is that if the locks are mechanically sound I'll put in CX5 cores. If the locks themselves are getting worn out and need replacement then I'll go with the Everest & make sure they are full of security pins. That's about what my budget will allow. Unless anyone has some other suggestions to check out?

[demux]

The lock the employee showed me clearly had a control key. He unpacked the boxed lock to show me and inside was a keyring containing two normal keys and then a 3rd one which looked very different. It was bare brass, had a very narrow (nearly nonexistent) bow. There were a bunch of numbers stamped on what little "bow" there was. I didn't get a close look but I assume that was a bitting code. There was a rather obvious square notch in the bottom of the control key, opposite the cuts for the pins. He stuck the control key into the lock, turned it, and the core (along with the face of the lock) came out. Aside from the fact that the face came out with the core it worked exactly like a SFIC (Best, etc.) control key. Normal keys operate the lock, the special key removes the core.

The lock was disassembled when he did this. It didn't appear to me that there was anything stopping someone from doing that while the lock was installed--the mounting screws didn't appear to go into the core/face--but I admit I didn't get a close look at that.

This isn't the best pic but it's the closest I could find online. That narrow brass key is the control key, and it pulls the core just like SFIC.

Yep, that looks almost exactly like what I have. I think we're talking about the same animal here. You probably didn't get a close enough look at the one in the store, but if you look at the one in the pic, you can see that the bitting on the control key is the same as on the operating keys. The only thing special is the notch on the bottom. You can turn a regular operating key into a control by just filing out an appropriately sized notch at the right place, and you can use the control key to open the lock as long as you don't pull the core when you hit about 180 degrees. So the control feature on these is more like a Schlage LFIC (additional feature on an otherwise-normal key) than a Best where you have a whole different control bitting.

I don't really care about that aspect of it. I don't need the ability to rapidly swap cores, I'm just looking for a step up in security to a standard hardware store lock and to make it a little challenging for someone to make unauthorized dupes. I'm not trying to secure Fort Konx, I just want to prevent raking/bumping and someone getting copies at Wal-Mart or Home Depot.

My current thought is that if the locks are mechanically sound I'll put in CX5 cores. If the locks themselves are getting worn out and need replacement then I'll go with the Everest & make sure they are full of security pins. That's about what my budget will allow. Unless anyone has some other suggestions to check out?

I have a couple of Everest deadbolts, I think they'd fit the bill for what you're looking for, particularly if you can find one in a non-C123/non-C145 keyway, and stick a few security pins in them as you've suggested. And they are (or at least were 10 years ago when I acquired mine) quite reasonably priced for the quality of lock that you get.

[gumptrick]

Yep, that looks almost exactly like what I have. I think we're talking about the same animal here. You probably didn't get a close enough look at the one in the store, but if you look at the one in the pic, you can see that the bitting on the control key is the same as on the operating keys. The only thing special is the notch on the bottom. You can turn a regular operating key into a control by just filing out an appropriately sized notch at the right place, and you can use the control key to open the lock as long as you don't pull the core when you hit about 180 degrees. So the control feature on these is more like a Schlage LFIC (additional feature on an otherwise-normal key) than a Best where you have a whole different control bitting.

Agreed. The point I was trying to make was that the control key alone can be used to remove the core as opposed to what Gordon mentioned about using the operating key:

...Then you use your normal key and turn it 180 degrees....

The locksmith employee told me that when they install those locks for customers they rarely give them the control key because in their experience the customer will mistake it for a regular key then accidentally pull the core out of their lock and have no idea what's going on! You're right that I didn't get a good look at the bitting, but it was obvious from looking at the lock itself that they must have been the same, unlike the different bitting on the normal SFIC/Best. Also, the little tab that sticks out of the core to secure the core it in the body looked very flimsy. I have no idea if this possible or not but I smell an opportunity for destructive bypass. Between that, the low pin count and the obviously cheap cast construction I will not be going with Titan. It was only slightly less costly than the Schlage, but the Schlage Everest was obviously much more solid, higher quality, construction.

In a little while I'll be back out at the property while some contractors work before I move in. At that time I'll take the locksets apart and see how worn they are to determine how to proceed. Old locks will stay in place while the contractors are doing their thing. Once they're done and I move in then I'll fix up the new ones.

[GWiens2001]

I was in error in saying the control key is the same as the user key. I meant that the bitting was the same. The difference is the cutout for the core removal pin on the bottom of the key. But if what I read is correct, the lock needs to have the spindle removed or the control key will not work.

If you need any of those control key blanks, let me know since there are several on my key board.

Gordon

[billdeserthills]

I was in error in saying the control key is the same as the user key. I meant that the bitting was the same. The difference is the cutout for the core removal pin on the bottom of the key. But if what I read is correct, the lock needs to have the spindle removed or the control key will not work.

If you need any of those control key blanks, let me know since there are several on my key board.

Gordon

The control key works without removing the spindle
Removing the spindle and turning the regular key 180 degrees for removal is a way to remove the core without a control key
or you can simply make a cut-out between the 3rd & 4th pins to make your own 'control key'

This means that a small piece of metal is all that is holding the core into the lock body--
The core actually fell out of the Titan knob lock on my shop door last month, when I closed the door too hard

Please don't be a lock picker who installs Titan or Kwikset on your own home--
I have Kwikset smarty key on my house, but as soon as it's finished being built, it'll be replaced with Medeco

[gumptrick]

This means that a small piece of metal is all that is holding the core into the lock body--
The core actually fell out of the Titan knob lock on my shop door last month, when I closed the door too hard

After having seen the core of the Titan that doesn't surprise me one bit. I was shocked at how small and flimsy that little retaining tab is. I will certainly not be using the Titan, that's for certain!

In a way it's pretty sad. The old mid-90's Titans were noticeably better quality, more solid construction, than the standard Quiksets and at least they had 6 pins. These new ones seem like junk by comparison. It's not much different than the lowering of standards at Master.

[GWiens2001]

I was in error in saying the control key is the same as the user key. I meant that the bitting was the same. The difference is the cutout for the core removal pin on the bottom of the key. But if what I read is correct, the lock needs to have the spindle removed or the control key will not work.

If you need any of those control key blanks, let me know since there are several on my key board.

Gordon

The control key works without removing the spindle
Removing the spindle and turning the regular key 180 degrees for removal is a way to remove the core without a control key
or you can simply make a cut-out between the 3rd & 4th pins to make your own 'control key'

This means that a small piece of metal is all that is holding the core into the lock body--
The core actually fell out of the Titan knob lock on my shop door last month, when I closed the door too hard

Please don't be a lock picker who installs Titan or Kwikset on your own home--
I have Kwikset smarty key on my house, but as soon as it's finished being built, it'll be replaced with Medeco

Ahh, thank you for the info, Bill.

Gordon