Help moving past padlocks?

[Deja vu]

I have been having a hard time moving beyond padlocks. I have several padlocks that I got a while back and I seem proficient in picking all of them. Recently I got a dead bold lock from a local hardware store. Thus far I have been unable to pick it. I recently tried my front door and then bought a second dead bolt lock all unsuccessfully picked after several hours (over 3 days) of trying . I feel I am pretty good at picking my padlocks but these other locks have humbled me. For my padlocks I have about 10 with different kind of pins so I doubt that the dead bolt pins are whats hanging me up.

Any advise? Thanks for any help!

[mseifert]

Advice is Patience and don't be over confident ..

[Jacob Morgan]

Best not to practice picking locks in use, like the one on your house.

Would suggest you get a mortise cylinder and a plug follower and practice with four pins, then five. Being able to repin a lock means you can try easy or hard biting, one to six pins, with or without security pins, etc.

[Deja vu]

Best not to practice picking locks in use, like the one on your house.

Would suggest you get a mortise cylinder and a plug follower and practice with four pins, then five. Being able to repin a lock means you can try easy or hard biting, one to six pins, with or without security pins, etc.

Fair enough on the house lock.

Would you suggest a cut away lock or not?

[GWiens2001]

No on the cutaway lock, because they feel different than the locks you will be picking.

If you are used to padlocks, then you are probably using too much tension on the deadbolt. Deadbolts do not have a spring return like most padlocks. If you use too much tension, you will over-bind the pins.

Gordon

[Deja vu]

That may be the case. I wish I had some one to practice with!

Thanks for the help

[GWiens2001]

Glad to help.

I get the strangest feeling I've seen your user name before.

Gordon

[gumptrick]

No on the cutaway lock, because they feel different than the locks you will be picking.

That's some good advice Gordon. I also think a problem with cutaways or transparent locks is that it can be all to easy to fall into the habit of relying on your vision for picking as opposed to learning the feel. In my opinion cutaways or transparent locks are good for illustrating how a lock works but they're not very good for actually learning to pick.

I'm of the opinion that the best way to learn is to start with simple locks (no security pins and sloppy tolerances) and a minimal pin count, and then work your way up from there. I also think that it's a good thing to work with several different locks at the same time. If you pick one lock over and over again you learn a little, but you also end up relying more on memory than you do feel. If you have several locks and you never pick the same lock twice in a row then you force yourself to develop feel rather than relying on memory. Think of it like doing math problems back when you were in grade school. You wouldn't do the same problem every time. Instead your homework would consist of many different problems so you actually have to work through the long division, multiplication, etc, every time. Same concept. And it's not too expensive to do either. You can get bulk lots of used locks cheap on Ebay (or maybe even locally--ask around at your locksmith, or check Craigslist). Many padlocks are very cheap if you shop around and you can simply buy several of them. When I taught myself to pick security pins I bought 5 Master 140s, 5 Master 150s, 5 each of a couple different Abus models (4 pin and 5 pin), and so on up through some 6-pin Americans I scored on Ebay. My rule for buying locks to practice on is to always buy at least two identical looking locks. That way when I go to pick one I can't think to myself "Oh, this is that Ace with the really high cuts in the back". Since I own more than one that look identical I am forced to go by feel instead of memory.

Another great tool are those re-pinnable training locks. I really like the "Ultimate Adversary" model. It's a 7-pin cylinder and comes with a big bag of different pins, including security pins. You can access the pin chambers with screws so you don't need any special locksmithing tools to re-pin the lock. You can set it up with any number and type of pins to suit your skill level. Start with one standard pin for absolute beginners and go up to 7 security pins when you're ready for that challenge.

[GWiens2001]

Good advice from you, too gumptrick.

However, be wary of too sloppy a tolerance. That can be harder to pick. And dollar store locks are a bad idea since they frequently use plastic shells for the lock core and pins that just don't feel right.

Gordon

[tpark]

I think that the real value of the ultimate adversary lock is that if you screw up pinning it, you can simply remove the plugs and dump all of the pins. With the standard method of loading pins, it's possible to get the lock in a state where it can't be opened or the plug removed. On most cylinders there's a way to uncap the pin chambers, but still it can be a pain.

Some of the deadbolts you can buy are very difficult to open by picking. Smartkey locks don't open like normal pin tumbler locks, and Schlage often puts spools in some of their better locks, at least in the outside facing lock.

Certain keyways such as schlage "C" may be difficult to pick especially if you don't have a thin pick. Other locks might have a low pin, then a high pin which makes them prone to oversetting if you're not careful.

[Jacob Morgan]

...Certain keyways such as schlage "C" may be difficult to pick especially if you don't have a thin pick. Other locks might have a low pin, then a high pin which makes them prone to oversetting if you're not careful.

Kwikset and their clones are fairly open. Yale Y1 is a pain. If you want a wide-open keyway to practice on before moving onto tighter keyways, there are "composite" keyway cylinders made by Ilco--multiple key blank types will work with them. Those keyways are open enough you could almost pick them with a knitting needle.

Was at Menards the other day (a home center chain in the Midwest) and replacement rim cylinder locks with Kwikset keyways were going for under $5. The quality did not look amazing, but for under $5 might be worth it if you're just getting into picking.

[Shackle Jackal]

I second progressive pinning. it may seem like moving backwards but it works.

[Ralph_Goodman]

... be wary of too sloppy a tolerance. That can be harder to pick. And dollar store locks are a bad idea since they frequently use plastic shells for the lock core and pins that just don't feel right.

Great bit of advice. I know so many people that get frustrated with those cheap locks and lose all of their confidence.

It is a waste of money to buy locks that were not built to offer any security. You can't pick them too well, but you can overwhelm them without skill no problem. No security. No picking value.

[Deja vu]

After trying for some time I was able to pick the dead bolt I bought. I do feel that some luck was involved.

The ultimate advasary looks very promising. I think it might save me some money from buying a bunch more looks (I have bought 2 more since the origional post)

A local lock smith offered to sell me a Mad bob set of lock picks. They come in a black case that feels like "seat belt" He claimes they are good picks but that he likes thick and thin picks are these are some where in the middle.

Are they good picks?

[gumptrick]

Mad Bob makes great picks. They are unusual among pick makers in that they hand-finish (polish) every pick. Most pick makers tend to either ignore that (the cheap Chinese ones) or they do a basic tumble polishing (most of the big guys like Southord, Sparrows, Peterson, etc.).

Polishing might sound lame at first but it's actually quite important. You want the picks to be smooth and free of burrs, rough edges, and so on. That way they slide smoothly into the lock and are less likely to get hung up on warding and give you a better feel. I generally go over any new picks with 400 and/or 600 grit wet-or-dry sandpaper to smooth over any sharp spots and make sure they are nice and slick.