S&G 6870, anyone picked successfully?

[Lelandwelds]

How "highly secure" is this UL437 compliant lever lock? How does this provide 1,000,000 key differs?

[gumptrick]

Very secure. I know they can be picked but it takes specialized tools.

They have 9 levers inside, so a little math lets us figure out how many differs each lever must have. The basic formula for the total number of key differs is to take the number of possible cuts per pin/lever to a power equal to the number of pins/levers.

We know this lock has 9 levers, so our formula is X^9 = 1,000,000. Of course solving that will get us some strange decimal and we know that the number of cuts per lever must be a whole number.

4^9 gives 262,144 differs. That's less than a million so that can't be it.
5^9 gives 1,953,125 differs. That's more than a million so we know that 5 is the minimum possible number of cuts per lever. It might well be higher than that. All we know for the UL437 standard is that it must be at least one million. 5 or any higher number satisfies that requirement for a 9-lever lock.

If you're looking for a crazy secure key-operated lock check out the Kaba-Mauer "Primus C". That has a whopping 14 levers for approximately 13 billion possible key differs. Kaba-Mauer also offers hardware you can set up two separate key locks that must opened in the correct sequence.

[Lelandwelds]

Mr. Johnson said I'd need algebra someday.

UL437 has requirements that are obviously for the big steel box. So, I guess this lock(or any other) really doesnt have the cert until each mfg pays for testing for each model of the completed safe?

I am imagining the "special tool" to look something like a disc detainer pick. Does this lock have a shield above the keyhole like a UK leverlock? I suppose serrated levers are used nearly always? I guess the tool would basically need to be a one off because of the various door thicknesses?

Kinda curious why these are so popular in UK but here only seen on the little inner compartment? They seem quick to operate, relatively inexpensive, and more reliable than the common digital locks. I see the audit trail and time out periods really only useful to the government, a bank, or an ATM. Other than having to pack around the long goofy key, I dont see their downside.

The Primus C case looks pretty much the same size and thickness of other key operated locks. It cant be that hard or expensive to drop a few more levers and spacers in there. Five extra brass stampings cant be that technically demanding. Why does anyone make a seven or eight lever lock? The Primus C looks to be €300 so it must have extra security features?

[gumptrick]

Lever locks are picked with a tool called a "curtain pick". Google that and you should find some images. I'm not very well versed with these but as far as I know they tend to be specific to a certain model of lock, or perhaps a few similar models by the same manufacturer. Removed link to tools restricted to advanced forums.

Kinda curious why these are so popular in UK but here only seen on the little inner compartment? They seem quick to operate, relatively inexpensive, and more reliable than the common digital locks. I see the audit trail and time out periods really only useful to the government, a bank, or an ATM. Other than having to pack around the long goofy key, I don't see their downside.

I have the same question, honestly. I can't help but wonder if it's simply an "image" issue? At first glance that key looks very old-fashioned. A person who didn't know much about locks could easily think "oh, that's antiquated junk, nobody uses that anymore". In my opinion, like the combination lock, this is technology that has stood the test of time and is proven to work. The tools are expensive and model specific. A crook might show up to a break-in carrying a pick gun, handful of common bumpkeys, or a few basic picks. But is he going to be carrying a couple dozen high-priced safe lock tools so that he just so happens to have the right one to match whats in your safe? Not likely. The only people carrying those around would be a mobile locksmith van specializing in safes, or a crook who already knows the exact details of his target. I think the fact that they are uncommon in North America makes them even more desirable here. What's the chance of a crook in Texas having the tools or any clue how to defeat an obscure top-security European lock? Whenever I complete my move and get around to ordering a proper gun safe I will be setting it up with a Group 1 combination lock and a high security key lock (current favorite being the Priums C).


As for carrying the long key around, there is a solution to that too. They make keys with detachable bits. Instead of carrying around a silly long key you carry just the tip where the bitting is. Then you store (or better yet: hide) the shaft of the key near the safe. When you want to get in you get out the bit, snap it on to the shaft, and open the lock. The bit section is small so you can easily carry it on a normal keyring, stick it in a purse or pocket, etc.

They have a fancier mechanism involving what Kaba-Mauer calls a "Servant". It's based on the idea of having the shaft and bit separate, but apparently it is a more secure method that involves the bit being hinged on the tip of the key and possibly a second lock? I'm not exactly sure how this works. I've seen some information about it on the Kaba-Mauer website but it's not explained in enough detail for me to understand how it works. If anyone here knows more about this I would love to learn. Regardless of what that system is, it's always possible to have other methods of adding security like designing the boltwork to require multiple locks to be operated, perhaps even in a specific order. Knowing the correct order of operation becomes another layer of security like owning the key or knowing a combination.

Five extra brass stampings cant be that technically demanding. Why does anyone make a seven or eight lever lock? The Primus C looks to be €300 so it must have extra security features?

It might have some extra features, I'm not sure. Whatever it has inside it meets the highest of the European standards. It's always possible that the product is priced at a premium simply because it's their flagship key-operated lock. You often find diminishing returns with any product like that. A $90,000 BMW is certainly nicer than a $30,000 Toyota. But is the BWM three times nicer? Even a 7 or 8 lever safe lock is no joke!

[GWiens2001]

OK guys. Shutting this down. The conversation has gone well beyond general safe information and is drifting into details of safe opening tools and picking. That is advanced topic info

Keep the thread away from picking details and links to tools that are restricted to advanced, or the whole thread will be moved.

GWiens2001 - moderator

[gumptrick]

Sorry Gordon, I figured I was in the clear for that link because all it did was provide a list. That site didn't show pictures of the tools or explain how they work. And we weren't discussing how to pick or otherwise defeat these locks, rather I was stating that such tools simply exist. Is it really against the rules here to mention that tools exist without providing specifics? I have zero interest in defeating a safe lock but I am interested to learn how I might be able to design a more secure safe for my personal use. Where would the appropriate place be to discuss that?

I don't mean this to come off as rude and I do my best to respect the rules here but sometimes it seems rather difficult to determine where the line is between "OK" and "restricted" discussion.

[Squelchtone]

Sorry Gordon, I figured I was in the clear for that link because all it did was provide a list. That site didn't show pictures of the tools or explain how they work. And we weren't discussing how to pick or otherwise defeat these locks, rather I was stating that such tools simply exist. Is it really against the rules here to mention that tools exist without providing specifics? I have zero interest in defeating a safe lock but I am interested to learn how I might be able to design a more secure safe for my personal use. Where would the appropriate place be to discuss that?

I don't mean this to come off as rude and I do my best to respect the rules here but sometimes it seems rather difficult to determine where the line is between "OK" and "restricted" discussion.

that's the problem, talking about "hey a tool exists for x lock, here' s a link to buy it" can easily transition to "hey also, here's a link on their website to a video of how to use it" and that's a slippery slope, which is why we encourage that if the topic is known to be high security or deal with sensitive issues such as safe cracking, decoding locks meant for safes, or for cars, etc that it is dont in the Advanced area so there is no "ooops" moments of posting high level stuff in the public forum.

The This Old Safe area is for members of the public who visit here and need help dialing their old safe combo or doing basic troubleshooting. This Old Lock is for home owners who need help repairing an old lock or fitting a new one on an old door. Here is the welcome message for This Old Safe viewtopic.php?f=36&t=57348#p418269

So no, its not against the rules to even mention something exists, but while you may just mention it, the next person to join the forum and see that post may think it is a green light to talk about how to use it or other attacks on a particular lock, so we have to draw the line somewhere otherwise why bother having rules or different categories.

and I totally get it, leland is doing a bunch of research on the best safe lock for his project, which is great, but some of the posts really should be in the Safe Locks area.

You've both got enough posts, and lelandwelds is 11 days from being able to apply, why haven't you applied for Advanced access yet? You could freely discuss all manner of picking, cracking, destruction and mayhem with the right access.

Thanks
Squelchtone - Admin

[gumptrick]

Thanks Squelchtone.
I did think of the slippery slope which is why I was careful to check the site first to make sure there were no pictures, videos, or discussion of how those tools were used.

You've got enough posts, why haven't you applied for Advanced access yet?

I do plan on it, but I wasn't sure if I had been here the required length of time or not. I figured I was getting close but I wasn't sure. And I also thought it was bad form to apply the very instant my "time was up". I'll have to go back and check my notes. I did note down my join date for exactly this reason!


Regarding this particular topic, I have no interest in discussing how to open or defeat safe locks. Personally I have no clue how to defeat them. I just wanted to answer Leland's question that yes they are pickable, but it's not easy and the tools are costly and specific. Nothing more. A similar example might be that most people know that airplanes exist while they have no idea how to actually fly one.

I am quite interested in how these multiple-lock-boltwork systems that enforce sequence and the "key carrier" systems work, though I have zero interest in defeating the locks themselves. Would that be something that I would need to start a topic in the advanced section to discuss?

[Squelchtone]

How "highly secure" is this UL437 compliant lever lock? How does this provide 1,000,000 key differs?

Are you sure about the key differs, I'd like to see where that is posted.

Normally when talking about S&G safe locks, the 1,000,000 number is associated with the number of combinations the 6730 combination lock can be theoretically set to.

Thanks
Squelchtone

[demux]

I do plan on it, but I wasn't sure if I had been here the required length of time or not. I figured I was getting close but I wasn't sure. And I also thought it was bad form to apply the very instant my "time was up". I'll have to go back and check my notes. I did note down my join date for exactly this reason!

If you check on the far right side of any post you've made to this board, you will see some basic info about your account, including number of posts and date joined. Looks like it was June 8 of this year for you. Though I kind of shared your thoughts there and also didn't apply as soon as I had been here long enough. Just did a few days ago though, so looking forward to seeing you, lelandwelds, wilsontrucking, and a few others that joined around the same time and have applied in the advanced area, if we all get approved.

[kwoswalt99-]

How "highly secure" is this UL437 compliant lever lock? How does this provide 1,000,000 key differs?

Are you sure about the key differs, I'd like to see where that is posted.

Normally when talking about S&G safe locks, the 1,000,000 number is associated with the number of combinations the 6730 combination lock can be theoretically set to.

Thanks
Squelchtone

From lockwiki
http://imgur.com/K02TH7q

[gumptrick]

My understanding (and I could be wrong!) is that part of the UL437 specification is that the lock must have a minimum of 1 million possible differs in order to qualify. However, it only applies to key locks. Combination locks are not included in the standard.

Regarding safe locks: A three wheel safe lock like most S&Gs would have 1 million possible combinations at first glance & with a quick-and-dirty-calculation. After all 100 x 100 x 100 = 1 million. But in reality it is less than that for two reasons:
1) The forbidden zone on the last number.
If we assume the forbidden zone is 25 numbers wide then we'd have 100 x 100 x 75 = 750,000 possible combinations.

2) The tolerance built into the grade of the lock. All combination locks allow for a little bit of tolerance. For example, if one of the numbers in a combo was 50 but you turned the knob just a hair past 50 to "50.5", would the lock still work? Most locks are group 2, and they allow more slop/error to be dialed. That would allow you to dial 50.5 and it would still work. Or maybe even 51. That would reduce the number of potential combinations as well.

A 4-wheel lock with the same forbidden zone on the last no. would have 75 million possible combinations (ignoring tolerances). 5-wheel would give 7.5 billion

And that reminds me: I noticed that S&G (and others) make a 4-wheel lock, but they tend to be group 2. I've never heard of a standard production group 1 lock with 4 or more wheels. That seems strange to me since adding that 4th wheel adds many more possible combinations. I would think that if someone had high security needs requiring a group 1 lock they would want that. Yet the group 1 locks with 3 wheels are rated for higher manipulation resistance than the 4 wheel group 2 lock. Why is that? I assume that means the group 2 locks are designed with sloppier dialing tolerances and/or they lack additional features that the group 1 locks have?

Does anyone make a 4 wheel group 1 safe lock?

[Squelchtone]

How "highly secure" is this UL437 compliant lever lock? How does this provide 1,000,000 key differs?

Are you sure about the key differs, I'd like to see where that is posted.

Normally when talking about S&G safe locks, the 1,000,000 number is associated with the number of combinations the 6730 combination lock can be theoretically set to.

Thanks
Squelchtone

From lockwiki
http://imgur.com/K02TH7q

I think this is blending two things together, the language of the UL437 spec talks about security containers needing to provide at least 1,000,000 differs, I'm asking where in the S&G literature for that model lever lock does it state how many differs it is capable of. I think lock manufacturers pick and choose which UL437 specifics apply to their locks, but I don't think every spec has to apply to every lock or container. I guess the thinking is since it's UL437 listed it therefore must have 1 million differs by default? I'm so tempted to call S&G support right now to see what they say. Here's what I could find, see page A33 of the PDF http://www.sargentandgreenleaf.com/file ... 014_US.pdf

Squelchtone

[Lelandwelds]

Gumptrick

Yet again you give me more things I must google. Thanks!

There's a four wheel safe in my family. I've had to open it a few times. That fourth wheel is a picky PITA all out of proportion to an extra wheel. It is used but opened rarely.

Moderators

Sorry. It's hard for me to let things go once I have an objective in sight. I think I will read read a bit IRL for the next eleven days.

[gumptrick]

I guess the thinking is since it's UL437 listed it therefore must have 1 million differs by default?

That is my understanding.

The UL437 thing is binary. Either a lock does or does not meet the standard. If it meets the standard then it must meet all specifications in that standard, including differs, drill protection, etc. If the lock fails to met any one (or more) of the criteria then it does not qualify for UL437 rating.

I know some locks can be ordered either in a "standard" or "UL437" version. It's the same core, they simply add the drill protection inserts to the UL437 version. The number and type of pins remains unchanged. I came across this when I was researching the CX5 aka Marks aka Scorpion pin-tumbler lock.