Safes

[Wolf2486]

I tried a search but could not find my answer: What is the difference between a Group 1 safe and a Group 2 safe, and are there any other groups?

[32768]

Try this thread:
viewtopic.php?p=31208

Here's what I googled for to find it:
site:lockpicking101.com "group 1"

[Wolf2486]

Thanks, that helped a lot. When I typed "Group 1" in the search engine that post didn't come up.

[WhiteHat]

perhaps we can find the UL listing description for group 1 and 2 locks and make it into a sticky allong with UL437 here:
viewtopic.php?t=4012

[sojal]

There is also group 2M. It is simply group 2 with additional features that make it Manipulation resistant by experts to grater than 2 hours (group 1 lock is 20 hours attack time, group 2 lock to my knowledge does not have specified manipulation time - this does NOT mean there is no minimum attack time, I'm only talking about the manipulation).

As to how the group 2M lock will vary from the group 2 lock, I'm not entirely sure about. There are various ways. I have a group 2M lock with false gates for example, but am sure there are other techniques that can make manipulation longer than 2 hours, such as the techniques discribed for group 1 locks.

For group 1 locks, a minimum number of possible 'effective' combinations is required (I think 1,000,000), which in practice means 4 wheels. Due to the 'forbidden zone', the 'tolerance to +-X number' on locks, the effective number of combinations on a 3 wheel lock is a lot less than the maths or manufacturer will tell you. The minimum tolerance for group 1 locks is +- 0.75 to 0.875.
As has been said in the other thread, group 1 locks need some mechanism that prevents the nose of the lever from reaching the contact points, thus making life a .

For group 2 locks there is also a minimum number of 'effective' combinations, which means that the tolerance to the combination number needs to be at least +- 1.25 or better for a 3 wheel lock and +- 1.5 or better for a 4 wheel pack, which means that the wheels need to be better manufactured than for non-rated locks.

Group 2 locks (and of course group 1) need also a 'relocking' device that prevents punching.

Group 1R is not only X-ray, it also includes any other radio imaging tools. Wheels are made of delrin or other low density stuff.

There are also a lot of other characteristics unrelated to manupulation.

[HeadHunterCEO]

can't use the autodialer on group 1s

[hzatorsk]

As to how the group 2M lock will vary from the group 2 lock, I'm not entirely sure about. There are various ways. I have a group 2M lock with false gates for example, but am sure there are other techniques that can make manipulation longer than 2 hours, such as the techniques discribed for group 1 locks.

A common technique is to make the drive cam slightly larger diameter than the wheel pack. This prevents the fence from touching the wheel pack and greatly reduces your feedback.

For group 1 locks, a minimum number of possible 'effective' combinations is required (I think 1,000,000), which in practice means 4 wheels. Due to the 'forbidden zone', the 'tolerance to +-X number' on locks, the effective number of combinations on a 3 wheel lock is a lot less than the maths or manufacturer will tell you. The minimum tolerance for group 1 locks is +- 0.75 to 0.875.

Not necessarily true. The flies on the wheelpack allow for the entire range of the individual wheels to be used. The only forbidden zone is in the third wheel. That is not 'much less' than the manufacturer tells you. Even still they did tell you about the dead zone. Right?

As has been said in the other thread, group 1 locks need some mechanism that prevents the nose of the lever from reaching the contact points, thus making life a .

Or perhaps more fun...

For group 2 locks there is also a minimum number of 'effective' combinations, which means that the tolerance to the combination number needs to be at least +- 1.25 or better for a 3 wheel lock and +- 1.5 or better for a 4 wheel pack, which means that the wheels need to be better manufactured than for non-rated locks.

Not so... The .5 and 1.5 tolerances are deisgned to provide customers different solutions. Not everyone WANTS a .5 tolerance dial. The manufacturing process is identical... it is simply a larger gate.

Group 2 locks (and of course group 1) need also a 'relocking' device that prevents punching.

I am not sure this relocker requirement is in the specification for Group 2. Even if it were... I'd have an issue with it as punching is a specific attack against a specific weakness and I am not sure all group 2 locks are subject to this. ...I guess I'll go reread it.

Group 1R is not only X-ray, it also includes any other radio imaging tools. Wheels are made of delrin or other low density stuff.

There are also a lot of other characteristics unrelated to manupulation.

[hzatorsk]

can't use the autodialer on group 1s

You can use *my* autodialer on a mechanical Group 1 with moderately good success. If the tension is tight enough on the wheelpack... you can speed the dialer up to a frenzy pace as it won't 'throw' the wheels beyond your stopping points.

[sojal]

A common technique is to make the drive cam slightly larger diameter than the wheel pack. This prevents the fence from touching the wheel pack and greatly reduces your feedback.

I never came across that. Sounds strange.

For group 1 locks, a minimum number of possible 'effective' combinations is required (I think 1,000,000), which in practice means 4 wheels. Due to the 'forbidden zone', the 'tolerance to +-X number' on locks, the effective number of combinations on a 3 wheel lock is a lot less than the maths or manufacturer will tell you. The minimum tolerance for group 1 locks is +- 0.75 to 0.875.

Not necessarily true. The flies on the wheelpack allow for the entire range of the individual wheels to be used. The only forbidden zone is in the third wheel. That is not 'much less' than the manufacturer tells you. Even still they did tell you about the dead zone. Right?

Well, the forbidden zone itself doesn't reduce combinations by such a great amount. The biggest reduction in combination numbers comes from the dialing tolerance. If it is +-1 number for example then you divide the possible combinations by 27 already, so instead of a theretical 1,000,000 combinations on a 3-wheel you get under 40,000 possible combinations... If the tolerane is +-0.5 then you divide by 8. To get 1,000,000 effective combinations you end up needing 4 wheels.

As has been said in the other thread, group 1 locks need some mechanism that prevents the nose of the lever from reaching the contact points, thus making life a .

Or perhaps more fun...

Man, you got a wicked sense of humour

For group 2 locks there is also a minimum number of 'effective' combinations, which means that the tolerance to the combination number needs to be at least +- 1.25 or better for a 3 wheel lock and +- 1.5 or better for a 4 wheel pack, which means that the wheels need to be better manufactured than for non-rated locks.

Not so... The .5 and 1.5 tolerances are deisgned to provide customers different solutions. Not everyone WANTS a .5 tolerance dial. The manufacturing process is identical... it is simply a larger gate.

ha! Didn't know that. Live and learn.

Group 2 locks (and of course group 1) need also a 'relocking' device that prevents punching.

I am not sure this relocker requirement is in the specification for Group 2. Even if it were... I'd have an issue with it as punching is a specific attack against a specific weakness and I am not sure all group 2 locks are subject to this. ...I guess I'll go reread it.

I'm pretty sure about this one. I know it's got nothing to do with manipulation and is part of the 'other' attributes in UL listings, but I thought I'd mention it.

[HeadHunterCEO]

which autodialer do you own?