Getting into high security locks

[mavor]

Hey guys, I want to ask you for an advise. I'm interested in getting into high security locks, I want to be able installing something similar to what I have in my house - a set of Schlage Primus locks plus regular non-Primus locks operated by the same key.

I recently got into locksmithing, it's more like a hobby for me than something I would do for living, I find it entertaining to work on key cylinders, make my own keys, etc. At the same time, lock picking doesn't really excite me at all, I'd rather build new stuff than try to break existing things. I have software engineering background and I spent good amount of time working on security, reverse engineering other people's code, etc, so cracking mechanical locks looks too simple for me.

While doing my own research, I found some public knowledge on Schlage - I picked that brand just because I have one in my house - and purchased few tools and samples. I can now build, re-key, master key, originate - regular Schlage and Kwikset locks. At the same time I found it's impossible to purchase Primus cylinders and keys for them, which is disappointing because the installation is not much different from the regular non-Primus. I refuse to fall back on regular locks simply because they are so insecure, one can open them with basic tools, like bump keys, etc, after simply watching a YouTube video and ordering tools from eBay or Amazon.

I was hoping that after getting a locksmith company license - yay, I got one - thing will get easier but not really. I was trying to find a place where I can purchase Primus cylinders along with keys, but didn't find good deals. To my surprise, several places I contacted either ignored my emails/voice messages or have some strange minimum order/must be a dealer hoops, which I have to go through. Also it is quite strange that all of the wholesalers have no prices on their items unless you sign with them. So I cannot even estimate what would it cost for me to order things I want.

I got an account with HL Flake, they sell partially assembled Primus cylinder for $51 + I assume I will need finger pin kit ($326) + key with no sidebar ($1.36), so basically no key. It's kind of expensive because one can buy normal cylinder for $6.

Anyhow, I already wrote too much. Basically my question is, how can I enter the "privileged" world of high security locks and what are the usual costs to do it?

[billdeserthills]

I have an account with HL Flake & they offer some of the lowest prices in the industry
If you want to pay less you need to look around, buying things wholesale isn't really that cheap

[mavor]

The problem is HL FLake doesn't sell Primus keys with already cut sidebar. That would make duplicating those keys a problem.
Of course I can buy generic key and find a high security duplicator, but I will still need to have a Primus key to copy it from.

I also don't think those Primus cylinders come with the finger pins and matching keys, like those generic Schlage GMS cylinders I was talking about.

[billdeserthills]

That's how the high security game works, you could go with Medeco or ASSA, still need to buy the cylinder, keys, (sidebar for ASSA) & pin kit.
As you mentioned some deals they want you to do a big money 'buy in'. Cheapest way is to find a low price on a pin kit &
maybe also on the cylinders & keys, but that'll likely be on E-bay

[jeffmoss26]

Primus requires a dealer buy-in/initial stock order:

https://kc.allegion.com/kb/article/what ... vels-mean/

[mavor]

Primus requires a dealer buy-in/initial stock order:
https://kc.allegion.com/kb/article/what ... vels-mean/

That is what I figured too. What I could not figure is whom to contact to set up buy-in/initial stock order and what is the amount $ in question? Apparently Allegion ignores my emails and voicemails.

[billdeserthills]

Primus requires a dealer buy-in/initial stock order:
https://kc.allegion.com/kb/article/what ... vels-mean/

That is what I figured too. What I could not figure is whom to contact to set up buy-in/initial stock order and what is the amount $ in question? Apparently Allegion ignores my emails and voicemails.

Looks like you could fall into Primus XP Level 3, then you only need to buy a minimum of 60 cylinders

[billdeserthills]

Primus requires a dealer buy-in/initial stock order:
https://kc.allegion.com/kb/article/what ... vels-mean/

That is what I figured too. What I could not figure is whom to contact to set up buy-in/initial stock order and what is the amount $ in question? Apparently Allegion ignores my emails and voicemails.

You cannot contact the manufacturer, they will only sell to their dealer
You need to contact your distributor, they buy from the manufacturer & sell to you

[mavor]

Thank you for the info. I'm still confused. So will I have to send a special request to HL Flake, who I assume is a dealer?
Well, the minimum order of 60 cylinders is almost $5000, that is way more than I'm willing to spend at this point.

Do you think this will work?
* order a single Primus cylinder - $70
* change the side pins for my liking - $.60 per pin
* 3D print the key with matching sidebars - $11 per key
* cut sidebars on high security key duplicator using cheap blank and 3d printed key - $1.5 per blank

The total amount spent - less than $100 per unique installation.

Am I missing something?

[billdeserthills]

You don't seem to understand the concept of a 'buy in'
other than that I think you'd be better off going with Schlage Everest locks,
since you can buy those

[mavor]

You don't seem to understand the concept of a 'buy in'
other than that I think you'd be better off going with Schlage Everest locks,
since you can buy those

Do you mean "buy in" as a way for the manufacture to force excessive amounts of their product on people - buy much more than they actually need? I think I perfectly understand that. I just don't think that works well with my business.

build.com offers Primus cylinder with the key for $80. That is one option. How difficult could it be to switch finger pins?

I'm sure I can find a way to source high security locks without spending huge amounts. Primus is no longer patent protected, so no reason to always go with Allegion if there are other ways.

Schlage Everest is not secure enough, everyone can copy that key at a department store, plus picking that lock is much easier comparing to Primus.

[Squelchtone]

You don't seem to understand the concept of a 'buy in'
other than that I think you'd be better off going with Schlage Everest locks,
since you can buy those

Do you mean "buy in" as a way for the manufacture to force excessive amounts of their product on people - buy much more than they actually need? I think I perfectly understand that. I just don't think that works well with my business.

build.com offers Primus cylinder with the key for $80. That is one option. How difficult could it be to switch finger pins?

I'm sure I can find a way to source high security locks without spending huge amounts. Primus is no longer patent protected, so no reason to always go with Allegion if there are other ways.

Schlage Everest is not secure enough, everyone can copy that key at a department store, plus picking that lock is much easier comparing to Primus.

I think you misunderstand. if you were to let's say buy into being a Medeco locksmith, Medeco needs to know you are gonna be serious, so you have to spend $5000 on a Medeco key machine, then on a line of padlock and door retrofit Medeco cylinders, and several keyways, national ones like G3 or Patriot that other Medeco locksmiths also stock, and if you really want, your own Dealer keyway that only you have for your immediate geographical area (B3, X3, Z3). Then they will probably expect you buy 100 to 500 blank keys for those keyways and keep some deadbolts in stock and some padlocks on display. You may get a free class from Medeco (Assa Abloy) and maybe a pin kit, but oh yeah, also get ready to buy pin kits for $500 each. You may get a cool Medeco mat for your counter or a cool Medeco neon sign to hang in your shop window, and the right to use Medeco logo in your van wrap graphics.

but this isn't them forcing you buy more than you need or a bunch of stock you'll never sell, it's you entering a partnership with them, and they wont do all that, or give you dealer pricing, if you just buy a couple cylinders or 2 or 3 deadbolts per month. Don't think of a big lock maker as the enemy right off the bat.

It honestly doesn't sound like you are at the point where you are ready to invest in a "high security" lock system unless its something like Marks Hi-Security.

Just my opinion,
Squelchtone

Forum Admin

[mavor]

I think, I understand the idea, I just don't agree with the approach. The "buy in" works in the best interest of the manufacture, this way they can limit number of contacts they work, minimize their own cost, while maximizing their profit. The locksmith who bought in with one manufacture is unlikely to switch to another, even if that other has a better product, so customer retention is great too. It is not exactly that friendly to a locksmith or a user who just starting in. Not enemies, no, but gods giving their blessings to their most loyal disciples

I would be OK with that, but I just don't consider normal, non-high security locks an option, the defeating them takes very little effort. And I don't have a business, which has hundreds of installations to justify the high cost of buy in.

It also make me feel wasteful to pay 10 times more for the stuff which is not much different mechanically.
Generic Schlage cylinder - $6 vs Primus cylinder - $70
Generic Schlage C Key - $.25 vs Primus key - $6
Are those 5 extra finger pins and sidebar really worth that much, and is that Primus key made of different kind of metal?

[Squelchtone]

It also make me feel wasteful to pay 10 times more for the stuff which is not much different mechanically.
Generic Schlage cylinder - $6 vs Primus cylinder - $70
Generic Schlage C Key - $.25 vs Primus key - $6
Are those 5 extra finger pins and sidebar really worth that much, and is that Primus key made of different kind of metal?

Any 17 year old at home depot can make copies of the generic schlage. only authorized schlage primus dealer with customer's card can make copy of schlage primus key. that's why people are willing to pay more for a better lock, peace of mind that their handy man or cleaning lady didnt make a copy of their key when they ran out to the hardware store on their lunch break. The home owner can go on vacation knowing someone isnt gonna go to their house and "break in" and steal their stuff using an illicit key.

I can also pick a Schlage or drill a schlage in under 1 minute, take a bunch longer with a Primus. No bad guy is willing to sit and pick or drill a lock for 5 to 15 minutes, when the next door neighbor has a Hom Depot Grade 2 Schlage SC1 that can be picked, bumped, or drilled open in under a minute without risk of cops driving up on you.

just my opinion,
Squelchtone

[stratmando]

I may have missed something. Want too add, Search Schlage Primus on eBay. Variety of many of the Parts, Precut keys, could rekey cylinder to match. Have it sent to someone else's house,(parents, kids?). If using this Key on your own house. Possible for someone to sell you precut keys, and have your address, not good.