Getting into high security locks

[demux]

It also make me feel wasteful to pay 10 times more for the stuff which is not much different mechanically.
Generic Schlage cylinder - $6 vs Primus cylinder - $70
Generic Schlage C Key - $.25 vs Primus key - $6
Are those 5 extra finger pins and sidebar really worth that much, and is that Primus key made of different kind of metal?

To put what Squelchtone said another way, what you're actually paying for here is not the physical cylinder and key. Those will cost a bit more than standard big box store grade because of the extra mechanical components, better machining, etc. but not 10x as much. What you're actually paying for here is the other stuff that makes them "high security". The cost to file and maintain a patent on the keyway. The records keeping to make sure that only authorized dealers/locksmiths can get stock. Making sure that stock is geographically distributed so some guy the next town over isn't selling the same stuff you are. The vetting of partners to be able to sell/service the stuff and the cost of enforcement if any of those partners ever breaks their contract (e.g. sells uncut blanks, etc). All that stuff adds overhead, and of course the manufacturers are going to pass it on to their dealers who are going to pass it on to you. Unfortunately you won't find many examples of high security as in hard to pick without high security as in all that other stuff, because if I put on a lock that's hard to pick but all someone has to do to get in is order a key blank online and cut a bump key, what's the point?

[mavor]

To put what Squelchtone said another way, what you're actually paying for here is not the physical cylinder and key. Those will cost a bit more than standard big box store grade because of the extra mechanical components, better machining, etc. but not 10x as much. What you're actually paying for here is the other stuff that makes them "high security". The cost to file and maintain a patent on the keyway. The records keeping to make sure that only authorized dealers/locksmiths can get stock. Making sure that stock is geographically distributed so some guy the next town over isn't selling the same stuff you are. The vetting of partners to be able to sell/service the stuff and the cost of enforcement if any of those partners ever breaks their contract (e.g. sells uncut blanks, etc). All that stuff adds overhead, and of course the manufacturers are going to pass it on to their dealers who are going to pass it on to you. Unfortunately you won't find many examples of high security as in hard to pick without high security as in all that other stuff, because if I put on a lock that's hard to pick but all someone has to do to get in is order a key blank online and cut a bump key, what's the point?

Very well said. I wouldn't put it better myself. That is all true for the current patented keys, that is the whole point of the patent - protect the intellectual property. The Primus XP is patented until 2024 and I respect that.

http://lockwiki.com/index.php/Key_patent_expiration_dates
However Primus patent on the other hand had expired back in 2007, so it's a fair game. And I haven't seen Allegion dropping prices on those or let anyone buy small amounts of their "expired" stock, they just keep milking the cow for as long as they can.

And IMHO, that new Primus XP patent is a joke, not much innovation comparing to plain old Primus, just new finger pin #7. Great! My guess when XP will expire they will make pin #8, lol.

It may cost a lot of money back in the days to take care the logistics but now with new information technology a student can write an app to take care all those things. I wouldn't be so confident about key blanks either, with the decreased cost of 3d printing, one can order one from many places online for really cheap. That all just provides false sense of security.

[demux]

http://lockwiki.com/index.php/Key_patent_expiration_dates
However Primus patent on the other hand had expired back in 2007, so it's a fair game. And I haven't seen Allegion dropping prices on those or let anyone buy small amounts of their "expired" stock, they just keep milking the cow for as long as they can.

Of course they're going to. They're a for-profit company, I would expect nothing less.

On the topic though, I'll also note that the patent expiring simply means that other companies can manufacture components for that system, not necessarily that they will. If Kaba Ilco can't move X thousand units per month, it's not worth their time and effort to reverse engineer (just because the patent expired doesn't mean the original manufacturer is under any obligation to share) the specs for that system and start making cylinders and key blanks. And for a lot of the high security segment, the necessary third party market volume just isn't there. By the time the patent expires anyone who really cares has already migrated over to the next gen system that still is covered, and whatever portion of the market that remains is small potatoes. And if there's no third party competition, the original manufacturer has no incentive whatsoever to drop their prices.

I wouldn't be so confident about key blanks either, with the decreased cost of 3d printing, one can order one from many places online for really cheap. That all just provides false sense of security.

And anyone with the right tools and skills, and enough motivation and time, could also machine those same components in their garage. But the main threat model has always been casual duplication, which the industry has done a fairly effective job in suppressing for most of the high security market. As with anything else, standard advice applies: make sure you keep your bitting codes secure and confidential.

[GWiens2001]

Your best bet for cheap cylinders for Primus is probably eBay. That is also where you can likely find a finger pin kit if you are patient and pay attention. Bought refill pins for my finger pin kit off eBay once for half what you'd pay from a locksmith supply.

The Schlage Primus key blanks are only "blank" for the same cuts that are on a normal Schlage key blank. The side cuts for the finger pins are already cut on genuine Schlage Primus blanks, and so are designed to only be usable by the locksmith who installed the original locks. That is part of the dealer benefits - they can be more assured that the locksmith down the street can't get their blanks and take the business. Any locksmith who deals with Primus can pin up new cores to an existing key, but getting the blanks to make more copies of keys is a different issue. Most locksmiths want to stock blanks for the locks they service.

On the other hand, now that the original patent has expired, Jet makes blanks for Schlage Primus in PC, PE and PH. Primus C section, Primus E section are obvious, but PH is a master that fits both PC and PE. These blanks are different from the Schlage blanks in that the side cuts are not cut at all. You can then use a sidewinder machine to copy the side cuts from an already existing Primus key, allowing duplication of any Primus key as long as the keyway fits. There are ways around that keyway issue as well, but that is a story for another time.

Been hoping I could create a set of Depth/Space keys for the sidebar codes using my 3D printer. All I need is for them to last long enough to copy to Jet blanks, then would be able to code cut the sidebar cuts. Unfortunately, I don't know nearly enough to create the 3D CAD file, or would already have done so. (If someone reading this has that ability, please send me a PM).

Gordon

[mavor]

Been hoping I could create a set of Depth/Space keys for the sidebar codes using my 3D printer. All I need is for them to last long enough to copy to Jet blanks, then would be able to code cut the sidebar cuts. Unfortunately, I don't know nearly enough to create the 3D CAD file, or would already have done so. (If someone reading this has that ability, please send me a PM).

It looks like you've found a person who can help you with that, lol. I ordered cheap 3D printer yesterday for just $200. I want to do my own experiments with 3D printing. I'm pretty sure the PLA print is strong enough to feed the sidewinder machine.

As I mentioned earlier, I have software background, so coding out appropriate key model from existing ones out there should not be a big deal. There are few available online, one of them can actually build Primus keys by code, DefCon archives have it. It's kind of ugly though, I'll make a better one, I just need to figure out proper dimensions and shape for the keyway(s).

There is an online 3d editor, https://openjscad.org/, anyone can use it, no need to install anything on the pc. After the model is done, one can also order the actual print online, the metal one, no need even to have 3d printer. I'll try that too, I wonder how good that metal key is and how much would it cost to make one.

[cledry]

If you are serious about buying in to a high security system then I believe Assa is the best one at the moment. Buy in is less. You can use a HPC 1200 to originate the keys and many duplicators will work to duplicate the keys. Just like Primus but not Medeco you can mix high security with less expensive cylinders in the same system. Unlike the others you can use the same key on High security, regular cylinders, and SFIC cores!

[billdeserthills]

If you are serious about buying in to a high security system then I believe Assa is the best one at the moment. Buy in is less. You can use a HPC 1200 to originate the keys and many duplicators will work to duplicate the keys. Just like Primus but not Medeco you can mix high security with less expensive cylinders in the same system. Unlike the others you can use the same key on High security, regular cylinders, and SFIC cores!

I like the Assa Twin 6000 system but now they're phasing it out-- GMS is selling non-high security cylinders for that keyway
https://hlflake.com/internal_page.asp?ID=738176#CAMERA

[cledry]

If you are serious about buying in to a high security system then I believe Assa is the best one at the moment. Buy in is less. You can use a HPC 1200 to originate the keys and many duplicators will work to duplicate the keys. Just like Primus but not Medeco you can mix high security with less expensive cylinders in the same system. Unlike the others you can use the same key on High security, regular cylinders, and SFIC cores!

I like the Assa Twin 6000 system but now they're phasing it out-- GMS is selling non-high security cylinders for that keyway
https://hlflake.com/internal_page.asp?ID=738176#CAMERA

Obviously I didn't choose a system that is out of patent. However I wasn't aware the old 6000 non UL437 is available form GMS.