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Key or Combination or both needed

Forgot how to dial the combination on that old safe? Think you got the right numbers but the handle is stuck? What safe should you buy? Ask your safe questions here!
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You are posting this in This Old Safe, a public area of the forum.

Safe manipulation discussion is allowed, but safe drilling or other destructive entry is only allowed in the Advanced - Safes and Safe Locks area.

If you are a guest of the forum and have a safe you need to open, but you do not have the combination, we cannot tell you how or where to drill it.

Key or Combination or both needed

Postby Rust » 6 Nov 2018 13:10

Inlaws have a pony express gun safe, Sargent and greenleaf combination lock with a key.
Without a picture can someone tell me if both are needed. She don't have combo but have a key and it seems to only lock the dial. Any suggestions? No pic sorry working on that, can't imagine opening the safe if I can't even get a picture posted. Lol
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Re: Key or Combination or both needed

Postby femurat » 6 Nov 2018 14:03

If the lock is inside the dial, it only locks it. If you can turn the dial then you don't need the key to open the safe.
You do need the combination...

Good luck :)
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Re: Key or Combination or both needed

Postby Rust » 6 Nov 2018 20:11

Image[image][/image]Image
Here a pic of the dial I hope. Thanks
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Re: Key or Combination or both needed

Postby bitbuster » 6 Nov 2018 20:51

Where is the handle in relationship to the dial? A full frontal pic of safe would be nice.
"I dream of a world where, chickens can cross the road without having their motives questioned". Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Re: Key or Combination or both needed

Postby GWiens2001 » 6 Nov 2018 23:33

As Femurat asked - can the dial be turned? If so, no key needed. If not, the key will be needed to unlock the dial.

Gordon
Just when you finally think you have learned it all, that is when you learn that you don't know anything yet.
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Re: Key or Combination or both needed

Postby MartinHewitt » 7 Nov 2018 6:09

The dial is not straight on the dial index. Does this mean the dial lock has to be unlocked?
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Re: Key or Combination or both needed

Postby Rust » 7 Nov 2018 20:31

Image
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Re: Key or Combination or both needed

Postby Rust » 7 Nov 2018 21:03

I can turn the dial freely and lock it up with the key. I guess I was hoping for a and or situation. That would have been to simple to have the key as a secondary unlock when the combo is gone. Apparently the key only locks the dial and has nothing to do with unlocking the safe.
My mother in law ought to love that one,
She has no clue what the combination is. I think they bought it in the 90s.
I found some 4 combinations but did not make sense or work. Three number and one four number.
What's my next option, would there happen to be a universal miracle combo that will grant me access other that a cut off saw.
Does anyone know what Model number this is?? Thanks
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Re: Key or Combination or both needed

Postby Squelchtone » 7 Nov 2018 21:58

Could you take a photo of the entire front including all 4 corners and hinges?

You can call Sun Welding in Simi Valley, California, they're the ones that made it. 805-584-6678 If there is a serial number tag anywhere on it, they may be able to provide the combination it left the factory with.
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Re: Key or Combination or both needed

Postby stratmando » 7 Nov 2018 23:15

Keep those Combos, one may work. If you know you are for sure dialing correction direction, and number of passes, ignore this. Some may say pass 3 times or on third? Things can get lost in translation
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Re: Key or Combination or both needed

Postby Rust » 7 Nov 2018 23:20

I'm not able to get pics right now as I'm at my ranch and the safe is in Van Nuys. Sun welding sounds real good as they are close to my in laws place. I need to get it moved out to see if I can find a serial number. That would be great
I know the hinges are on the left side, I found that kind of strange as my gun safes are on the right.
I don't recall having an option on the door swing.
Sure is a pretty safe.
Would that key be the key to reset combo. I've been reading way to much on the net, or is there another one inside? Thanks.
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Re: Key or Combination or both needed

Postby Rust » 7 Nov 2018 23:34

I was just going to ask that. I'm not even sure I was going left when I should have been going right. I need to find out the procedure for this model lock. I was reading about turning pass the number then stop.
I'll be completely honest here, all the while I'm trying to turn the dial, my lovely mother in law blurting out numbers and things to try. Bless her loud little heart.
I need the model number first I think. Also have some strange keys in the bag with these combos. Makes me wonder what they are.
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Re: Key or Combination or both needed

Postby stratmando » 8 Nov 2018 8:17

Whatever combos she tells you write them all down. If she is consistent, she is not likely making them up or guessing. Some really good Safe guys here. Don't want to name, as I may miss some good ones. They may explain the left, rights and when to stop. Changing combo is done inside, since dial is unlocked, ignore the key in front.
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Re: Key or Combination or both needed

Postby Squelchtone » 8 Nov 2018 9:32

Rust wrote:I was just going to ask that. I'm not even sure I was going left when I should have been going right. I need to find out the procedure for this model lock. I was reading about turning pass the number then stop.
I'll be completely honest here, all the while I'm trying to turn the dial, my lovely mother in law blurting out numbers and things to try. Bless her loud little heart.
I need the model number first I think. Also have some strange keys in the bag with these combos. Makes me wonder what they are.


The trouble with safes is that either they dont have official model numbers and are sold by size, or they are from 1890 and never had a model number or even if you know it's a model A Mosler or a model b Mosler, who knows what that even means since the company is well out of business.

You'll find a lot of safe catalogs will show a stock photo of a safe or 3 and they all look the same, the only difference is height or width. you may be able to get one that is 12x12 inch, 24x24 inch or 24x36 inch, and so on, depending on if you need to store cash, guns, rifles, etc. Some will have the model number include the size so like a FS2040 will be a Fire Safe 20inch x 40 inch, each company does it differently. Here is an example, see chart at the bottom: https://www.gardall.com/view-product/fi ... -gun-safes

when you call Sun, just tell them how tall and wide it is and maybe even give them the combinations your relative thinks they are and see if Sun is willing to say that one of the sets of numbers is the right combo.

They of course may not want to help a random person calling them, who knows if you are your aunts meth addicted nephew just trying to get into their gun cabinet so you can pawn their guns and score some more drugs. The safe companies will however give the combo to a locksmith or safe technician who calls them because that person is someone they consider trusted.

if you can throw it in a pick up truck and take it to their factory, and there is a serial number on it, then that might go a long ways in them helping you.

good luck and let us know how you make out
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Re: Key or Combination or both needed

Postby MartinHewitt » 8 Nov 2018 12:38

Maybe it is just a usage problem ...

The lock should have three numbers. If the combinations you get from here have four numbers and the last one is something around 90, then the last number is not really a number.

Here is a written description how to dial in the number (on the fourth PDF page, "If your lock is set on a true, three number combination ..."):
https://www.sargentandgreenleaf.com/kno ... _locks.pdf
And a youtube video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEYjgOFKR1U

It can't hurt to dial a wrong combination besides wasting a few seconds of your life. From my experience numbers are often birthdays. So you might try also the birthdays of people who are important to her.
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