A Tale of Two S&G Change Keys

[sign216]

I'm putting a NOS Sargent & Greenleaf 6730 on a 30 yr old safe. On hand, I've got two S&G change keys, but they're from vintage S&G Group 1 locks (maybe 40+ yrs old). Do either these look close to the 6730 change key?

[femurat]

The bottom one resembles it. Try it, worst case scenario it doesn't turn. Don't force it.

If it works, the best suggestion I can give you is to try MULTIPLE times to set the new combo and open the lock with the safe door open before deciding to close it.

Cheers

[billdeserthills]

The top key looks bent-- but as femurat said, the lower key looks good
if it turns 90 degrees it'll work

[Squelchtone]

your top key is a Mosler CDK-302 change key, it should say 302 on the back of the long part of the flat handle.

[sign216]

your top key is a Mosler CDK-302 change key, it should say 302 on the back of the long part of the flat handle.

Squelch,

You are right, it does say "302." These change keys are from a safe at work. The smaller key is for the S&G lock on the main door, and the larger 302 key is for the locks on multiple smaller interior compartments. I thought these were S&G too, but tomorrow I'll look more closely at the maker.

I'll also look at the safe maker and date of manufacture (if shown), just as a point of interest.

I know all the locks were marked "group 1." And the board thinks the smaller change key will be okay w my group 2 6730?

Joe

[sign216]

Yep, it's a Mosler safe, so all of the locks are probably Mosler too. My mistake.

For change keys, will a similar Mosler key fit an S&G lock?

[sign216]

Yep, it's a Mosler safe, so all of the locks are probably Mosler too. My mistake.

For change keys, will a similar Mosler key fit an S&G lock?

Never mind, tried the Mosler change key in the S&G lock, and it looks like it's not a good fit. I'll have to buy an S&G key.

[Squelchtone]

Yep, it's a Mosler safe, so all of the locks are probably Mosler too. My mistake.

For change keys, will a similar Mosler key fit an S&G lock?

Never mind, tried the Mosler change key in the S&G lock, and it looks like it's not a good fit. I'll have to buy an S&G key.

whats wrong with your current S&G U8 change key? it looks alright..
(the bottom one in your photo.)

are you using this method to change the combo and insert and turn the key?



If your wheels change key holes are already unlocked or somehow messed up, here is a service video:


follow GWiens2001's nice pictorial for installing an S&G 6730 lock:
https://www.lockpicking101.com/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=62492#p461469

[sign216]

Squelch,
I don't think the bottom key is actually an S&G key. It's from a Mosler safe, and when I put in the the 6730 lock, I can see it doesn't really fit. It is a little long and would hang up on the lock backplate (or so it appears).

Anyone have an S&G key they would rent to me for one combo change? (Hey, renting combo change keys is an interesting idea).
Joe

[Squelchtone]

Squelch,
I don't think the bottom key is actually an S&G key. It's from a Mosler safe, and when I put in the the 6730 lock, I can see it doesn't really fit. It is a little long and would hang up on the lock backplate (or so it appears).

Anyone have an S&G key they would rent to me for one combo change? (Hey, renting combo change keys is an interesting idea).
Joe

It is 100% an S&G key, but it may be the U12 meant for 4 wheel safes which is why the cutout in the key doesn't clear the back cover, or you have the 3 wheel U8 key and it just isn't inserted and seated all the way.

Do you have the cover on the lock and the combination dialed to the change index before you then insert the key into the back cover?

You *could* cowboy up and do a change key operation without a back cover and use the key you have in case it is the longer one for 4 wheel locks, it will still unlock and lock your wheels, but you have to know what you're doing. Gordon has a nice post about unlocked wheels somewhere around here.

any chance you could measure the thin part of your change key:




EDIT: looking at photos of 4 change S&G U12 keys, I'm 99% sure you have U8 3 wheel key.. couldnt tell you why it doesn't insert into your lock far enough.. maybe an unlocked wheel or some other misalignment.

[sign216]

Gordon,
That part measures at 19mm.
I hesitate when you say it's S&G, because it's from a Mosler safe. Of course anything is possible.
All the wheels line up and it's inserted all the way when I look at it, and it appears to foul/contact the back lid to the lock, preventing further movement.
Open it learned ideas, suggestions.
Joe

P.S. I'm open to doing a change combo with the back cover off, if possible. Is that really an option?

[Squelchtone]

My change key's part also measures 19mm and changes my S&G locks combo


yep, 19mm


Inserted into lock


turned 90 degrees to unlock wheels


yep, def an s&G 6700 series lock, and a sticker warning not to do cowboy stuff like changing the combo without the cover, which CAN be done, but only if you know what you're doing. I can make a video for you if you'd like.

Not sure what to tell you about finding that change key in a Mosler safe, perhaps your dial says Mosler but if that fits into a hole in the back of a safe lock it's gonna be an S&G safe lock.

Perhaps post a photo of your key inserted into your lock with the cover on and with the cover off, maybe we can see what's wrong as it is hard to diagnose without photos.

hope this helps,
Squelchtone

[sign216]

Squelch,
The issue is that the flanged part of the key is slight too tall for the S&G lock. See the pictures. It's approx. 25mm tall, and that intersects with the lid. I suppose I could do the change with the lid off, but raises other issues, so I'll just return this key to the Mosler safe and buy an S&G key.
Joe

[Squelchtone]

I have a feeling you dont have all 3 wheels aligned with all 3 change key holes stacked on each other so your key isnt going deep enough into the wheel pack.

here is my key, same measurements as yours:



inserted all the way without cover on


inserted all the way with cover on, but not turned yet


inserted and turned 90 degrees, ready to dial a new combination.

could you rotate your 1st and 2nd wheel gates /__\ above the 3rd wheels change key hole so we can see it's orientation? it may be out of synch (locked/unlocked position) causing the change key not to be able to insert any deeper.
here is what I mean:

the change key is just there so you can compare depths with yours, never actually do this to change the combination.


what it should look like

Looking forward to solving this,
Squelchtone

[sign216]

The two keys look so close, let me investigate this more closely after work tomorrow.
I'll see if the wheels are aligned, and report back to you.