auto safe cracker...?

[Gantry]

This is a short clip of a auto safe dialer at work. I've seen them in the movies (fake I'm sure) and a few "maker" projects. Is this the real thing and how well do they really work?

http://digg.com/video/safe-crack-auto-dialer

[billdeserthills]

The newest generation, the QX3 Combi Autodialer is currently being offered by Lockmasters at the low low price of only $3K, it is advertised to open any working safe lock within 13 hours. This will not open a combo lock with issues

[GWiens2001]

The newest generation, the QX3 Combi Autodialer is currently being offered by Lockmasters at the low low price of only $3K, it is advertised to open any working safe lock within 13 hours. This will not open a combo lock with issues

Is that a 3 wheel lock or a 4 wheel lock?

Gordon

[billdeserthills]

Either 3 or 4 wheel

[sign216]

I believe this is one of the reasons the govt went to electronic locks, despite their reduced life vs mechanical (only 20 yrs).

Reportedly electronic locks, like the Mas-Hamilton X series, are resistant to automatic dialers.

Joe

[Safecrackin Sammy]

They do work on single function locks like the S&G 6730 group two.

Commercial UL listed safes TL30 and above require a group one lock which is normally a two function lock like the S&G 8500 series. The auto dialer wont work on those.

And yes, the Kaba Mas X series has a requirement to sense the rpm's of the dial to combat auto dialers.

[sign216]

The Kaba Mas X series electronic locks combat the auto dialers by timing out the lock if an incorrect combo is entered. The time outs get longer and longer when more and more incorrect combos are put in, to the point that auto dialers cannot handle it.

Joe

[GWiens2001]

Auto dialers won’t work on the Kaba Mas X series locks because each time you change dialing direction the numbers start at a random number.

Gordon

[billdeserthills]

Auto dialers won’t work on the Kaba Mas X series locks because each time you change dialing direction the numbers start at a random number.

Gordon

Also the rate of speed at which the numbers pass by while turning the dial changes from 1,2,3 to 10,20,30

[Hippo_vibrations]

Auto dialers won’t work on the Kaba Mas X series locks because each time you change dialing direction the numbers start at a random number.

Gordon

That's a clever trick to protect against auto-dialers. After a brief googling, Kaba Mas X-series locks seem to be all at least partially electric, which of course makes the system more implementable. I could half-imagine a horrendously complicated (and thus error-prone) mechanical system doing something similar, but do you know if there are clever mechanical solutions that fight against auto-dialers with something similar?

[GWiens2001]

Auto dialers won’t work on the Kaba Mas X series locks because each time you change dialing direction the numbers start at a random number.

Gordon

That's a clever trick to protect against auto-dialers. After a brief googling, Kaba Mas X-series locks seem to be all at least partially electric, which of course makes the system more implementable. I could half-imagine a horrendously complicated (and thus error-prone) mechanical system doing something similar, but do you know if there are clever mechanical solutions that fight against auto-dialers with something similar?

If you feel like a little smithing, why not make a modification to the drive cam and/or lock body that is centrifugally activates, causing blocking arms to move outwards when the dial is turned too fast, stopping the dial from turning further. (Think of the front shoulder belts on a car).

Gordon

[Hippo_vibrations]

Auto dialers won’t work on the Kaba Mas X series locks because each time you change dialing direction the numbers start at a random number.

Gordon

That's a clever trick to protect against auto-dialers. After a brief googling, Kaba Mas X-series locks seem to be all at least partially electric, which of course makes the system more implementable. I could half-imagine a horrendously complicated (and thus error-prone) mechanical system doing something similar, but do you know if there are clever mechanical solutions that fight against auto-dialers with something similar?

If you feel like a little smithing, why not make a modification to the drive cam and/or lock body that is centrifugally activates, causing blocking arms to move outwards when the dial is turned too fast, stopping the dial from turning further. (Think of the front shoulder belts on a car).

Gordon

That should do the trick

I like it as a practical solution, but I'd still like to work a solution that would not only make the process (very much) longer, but make it completely impossible. (Protecting against a very specific attack where someone can leave a slow auto-dialer to work on the safe for long periods of time, e.g. keep it running every night, and can wait for a year without worrying about a code change.) I'll post if I ever think of something clever and actually doable.

[jwrm22]

Interesting topic.

I've been reading up on safe locks and safe manipulation, auto dialers.
A brute force key search is quite easy with a little programming skill.

The biggest problem is the diversity of locks. It's hard to make a one size fits all auto manipulator.
I've dreamed up a self learning auto dialer but Safe cracking world is not a nice neighborhood to be in...

[Squelchtone]

A brute force key search is quite easy with a little programming skill.

are you still referring to mechanical safe lock dialing to recover a combination or exhaustive key recovery for encryption algorithms such as DES, RC4, etc?

Squelchtone

[mh]

Auto dialers won’t work on the Kaba Mas X series locks because each time you change dialing direction the numbers start at a random number.

Gordon

Also the rate of speed at which the numbers pass by while turning the dial changes from 1,2,3 to 10,20,30

Then again, it's made so that a human can observe all this and dial the correct combination, so I don't see why electronics can't observe this as well. It's getting more complicated, of course.
So I think the main (and effective) protection against auto-dialling an X-series lock is the time penalty.