SG 6700- Manipulation 2nd & 3rd Wheel

[kld1648]

Yes, new member. Yes, searched. Yes, will try to keep this politically correct for community/standards.

Been in locksport on and off for years. Just bought a used S&G 6700 (first safe lock). Combination known, back removed. Toying with manipulation. Have read all the manuals, National Locksmith Guide, etc. Learning.

Can chart and find first ( in this care #3) wheel pretty easily. Having trouble transitioning to second/third. More of a mechanical understanding. Even with rear of lock case off, watching wheels, understanding dial movements... I'm stumped on efficiency of charting.

Question: Supposing contact points are 97-3.5, AWL, #3 wheel is 96... what is the most efficient transition to charting second/first wheel? Dial in AWL 96, AWR until second wheel picked up, start charting... but do I need to reset #3 wheel every time before progressing? This isn't clear in any of the guides I've read, nor in simply toying around. As in, reset whole wheel/lock scheme, rinse, repeat for 2.5, 5, etc. while I chart? This is a lot of dial movement. Last wheel is simply elimination if I find the first two and know which wheel they are. But getting to last wheel... what is the fastest series of motions?

Any references/guidance is appreciated.

If this shouldn't be posted publicly, please indicate so or PM. Trying not to be more specific than is already published on the internet. Trying to understand process to aid my own growth in this hobby.

Thanks.

[femurat]

Hello and welcome to the forum.

Short answer is yes. You have to set wheel 3 every time before checking contact points.
In your situation, I'd graph wheels 1 and 2 together around left.
If you prefer, as it seems, you can chart wheel 2 alone. I see some pros and some cons in doing so. But it may work very well for you. The procedure you describe is correct.
No need to reset the lock every time, if you know where the wheels are. Just move the one, or ones, you need to.

Happy spinning

[kld1648]

Thank you for the thoughtful response. With practice I'll get the hang of it. The concept of using imperfections in any given lock to our advantage feels intuitive... as in, I can actually feel it. Putting all the pieces together *seems* simple enough, no different than assembling an engine or any mechanical device. Practice, practice. Then buy another lock. And another one. Maybe never a master, but will certainly have fun in the process.

[kld1648]

Okay, think I got it. Reverse charting as needed, to retain wheel structure. Rather than work from 0 - 97.5 for each wheel, flip it if the situation calls for it. 97.5 - 0. Am I getting somewhere?

[femurat]

Yes you are. You just figured out a trick that almost nobody knows!

Cheers

[kld1648]

Successfully manipulated from start to finish with a randomly assigned unknown combo, no peeking, all through charting.

It's taken a few weeks of tinkering every night and learning the process. Took maybe an hour start to finish once I started this particular session. Didn't feel nearly as good as picking first lock. It's so methodical that any 'art' is drowned out by sheer boredom. Tedious beyond belief. And even finding the first two gates/wheels... I was left wondering if the last gate would present itself. No wonder people stick with drills.

Some lessons learned along the way:

Never re-scramble entire pack mid-chart. Always pick up where you left off, or at least... leave the wheels in their relative positions.

If a chart isn't clear, as in there are multiple low spots, nothing stands out as obvious gate... scramble pack randomly, rechart as before and compare to previous chart. There is a decent chance the indicating gate will present itself in a similar manner as the prev. chart, and any other low spots on the wheels will have changed position. Trust the charts.

Transitioning between wheels is not necessarily intuitive once you've identified your first gate/wheel. Stick to the books. Count revolutions. Chart accurately.

AWL or AWR when charting doesn't seem to matter, nor does starting your chart at '0' - understanding where your wheels are is far more important.

The less you have to spin the dial, the better. If a wheel can be parked, no matter how you have to do it... leave it there.

When in doubt, reset.

There were probably more lessons, but that's all I have to offer from an absolute beginners perspective/experience that won't be found in the publicly available books/guides.

Thanks for your guidance earlier, those that chimed in.

[mh]

Congratulations!
And with even more practice and experience, you can also develop it into an art;)

[kld1648]

I retract the statement about this not being an art - truly, it is ...but so tedious indeed.

Another lesson from a novice:

I was initially charting using eyeball 1/10ths or thereabouts, whatever it looked like. Which made the graph wander more than necessary. Made up a simple vernier scale, and now strictly stick to 1/8ths, whichever measurement is closest (even if it falls in between). This makes for a cleaner graph with more distinct lines, much easier to identify major shifts in high/low spots without second guessing.

Thanks again.

[MHC]

Apologies for resurrecting a year-old post, but could you please explain / post a picture of your vernier scale? I am new to lock manipulation, currently learning on an S&G 6741. The markings on the dial are quite coarse. I know some people add stickers with single thin lines on, particularly on the dial marker. But I can't picture where / how the vernier scale would sit. Is it just between / around the left & right contact points?

Thanks,

MHC

[Squelchtone]

Apologies for resurrecting a year-old post, but could you please explain / post a picture of your vernier scale? I am new to lock manipulation, currently learning on an S&G 6741. The markings on the dial are quite coarse. I know some people add stickers with single thin lines on, particularly on the dial marker. But I can't picture where / how the vernier scale would sit. Is it just between / around the left & right contact points?

Thanks,

MHC

https://www.lockmasters.com/lockmasters ... lkm1003rfs

[MartinHewitt]

This looks more like a scale for a pointer. A Vernier scale is explained here: https://www.miniphysics.com/how-to-read ... liper.html In case of a dial the main scale is the dial and the Vernier scale is fixed on the dial ring.

[MHC]

In case of a dial the main scale is the dial and the Vernier scale is fixed on the dial ring.

Thank you. I will try creating one.