Locks that take your keys?

[Mrhappyface]

Hi, first time on this forum, sorry if I come across as dense.

I'm not much of a lockpicker, I've been watching videos on lockpicking and different types of locks for a while now and find them quite interesting, but I've never picked a lock. Although picking locks sounds like a fun skill to learn, and I will learn it someday, I'm far more interested in the lock itself. I'm an engineering student finding myself with not much to do so I thought I might try and design some locks based off of the lockpicking videos I've watched.

It seems to me that it would be far more expedient to prevent any lockpicker from getting access to anything inside rather than make the pins themselves hard to pick. So I was wondering whether any locks had been developed that take your key fully inside of the lock before engaging it with the pins, as in you'd 'lock' your key inside and then use an external knob to turn the key?

I haven't been throwing this idea around my head for long so maybe it's been tried before and there are some dire problems with it, thought I might ask those more in though anyway.

Cheers!

[jwrm22]

Give it a try and see what you come up with.

A few locks as reference:
Forever lock. While it claims unpick-able it has been defeated. The lock quality is not that good.
Lafette safe locks, it's a slotted tube the key goes into. The lock is operated deep in the door.
I've seen other safe locks take the key, check the key and spit the key out again. But I can't find the video.

[GWiens2001]

The Bowley lock also prevents contact with the pins until the key is fully inserted, turned and then pushed further into the lock. It is only then that the key can be turned to operate the locking mechanism.

Gordon

[Dyonzi]

Sounds like a neat idea. I'd love to see the results

[Mrhappyface]

Give it a try and see what you come up with.

A few locks as reference:
Forever lock. While it claims unpick-able it has been defeated. The lock quality is not that good.
Lafette safe locks, it's a slotted tube the key goes into. The lock is operated deep in the door.
I've seen other safe locks take the key, check the key and spit the key out again. But I can't find the video.

Never seen the forever lock before, very interesting design.
I can't seem to find anything about a Lafette lock though?

The Bowley lock also prevents contact with the pins until the key is fully inserted, turned and then pushed further into the lock. It is only then that the key can be turned to operate the locking mechanism.

Gordon

Yes, the bowley is a very nice design, though it still allows access to the lock mechanism, what I'm thinking of is closer to the forever lock's taking of the key.

This is a quick sketch of what I see inside my head:
The key would be inserted fully into a slot which would clip it in place, the key would at this point engage with a simple pin tumbler lock. The user would then rotate the knob which would rotate the key from the 6 o'clock position to the 12 o'clock position inside the the lock, this would engage it with a second set of laterally engaged tumbler "pins". Once they have engaged, the key housing will rotate into the right side of the lock engaging with some mechanism which would unlock the lock. The user would then rotate the key back to the starting position, disengaging it from the slot and resetting the lock.

(I drew the key upside down. The first set of tumbler pins would be in the top of the keyway, the second set in the top of the lock itself)

The design of the key pins is very crude at this point but I think it gets the general idea across: the second set of pins should be unaccessable by any lockpick. Any of you veteran lockpicks see any glaring problems with it straight away? Picking should be out of the question, bumping shouldn't be possible without first making a replica key for the first lock, same goes for impressioning and destructive attacks shouldn't be a problem as long as you don't skimp on build quality.

Thanks.

[GWiens2001]

If I understand your theoretical design, the key does engage the pins of a pin tumbler lock cylinder from the start. So if the first section of lock was picked, the second part would automatically function when the lock cylinder is turned.

You would need some sort of clip design on the key bow. (The key bow is that "handle" you use to hold the key.) Otherwise, you could not remove the key from the keyway when you were done.

If we (you) are going to design the lock so there is a knob that would move the cylinder, perhaps the knob could first actuate a gear that pulls the key inwards, sliding the far end of the keyway further inwards a short distance and causing a blocking door or lever to close off the keyway. That way part of the lock would not be accessible to picks as the far end of the lock could not be accessed while the keyway was unblocked.

Just bouncing ideas out there. Interested to see where you design ideas head.

Gordon

[Mrhappyface]

If I understand your theoretical design, the key does engage the pins of a pin tumbler lock cylinder from the start. So if the first section of lock was picked, the second part would automatically function when the lock cylinder is turned.

The second set of pins only allows the cylinder to rotate 180deg, the last 180deg would only be possible after the second sets of pins would be engaged.

You would need some sort of clip design on the key bow. (The key bow is that "handle" you use to hold the key.) Otherwise, you could not remove the key from the keyway when you were done.

If we (you) are going to design the lock so there is a knob that would move the cylinder, perhaps the knob could first actuate a gear that pulls the key inwards, sliding the far end of the keyway further inwards a short distance and causing a blocking door or lever to close off the keyway. That way part of the lock would not be accessible to picks as the far end of the lock could not be accessed while the keyway was unblocked.

Hmmm, I was gonna just have a simple spring lever at the back of the keyway and a clip that engages at the front once the key is fully inserted, this clip would be retracted after a full 360deg turn. But your way would probably be more hardy and make picking even harder, nice thought.

Just bouncing ideas out there. Interested to see where you design ideas head.

Gordon

Thanks, don't know if I'll actually build a model for it or if it'll stay as some doodles in my notebook but it's fun to theories!

[jwrm22]

A Lafette is a fake safe dial. You pull it back and it exposes a key hole.
Insert the key and push the dial back. It engages the keyed safe lock inside the safe.
It's not bullet proof as a very long key would work as well.

https://i.imgur.com/KgnlTp5.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/MjKGQz6.jpg

--------

Nice design. Come to think of it I'd make it like one of these old coin acceptors slides/trays.

[demux]

If we (you) are going to design the lock so there is a knob that would move the cylinder, perhaps the knob could first actuate a gear that pulls the key inwards, sliding the far end of the keyway further inwards a short distance and causing a blocking door or lever to close off the keyway. That way part of the lock would not be accessible to picks as the far end of the lock could not be accessed while the keyway was unblocked.

Interesting thought. Except instead of pulling the key completely in, what if there were a notch or hole somewhere along the blade that the gate passed through (sort of like the Kwikset Titan cylinder keys), in such a way that with the gate retracted the plug would not turn, but with the gate closed it would be difficult/impossible to get a pick past? Might be a little more user friendly that way.

Another option would be some sort of element that allowed either the plug to turn, OR the pins to move, but not both at the same time. Sort of like the inner spindle/slide cam mechanism in the S&G MP locks. I'm not sure how one would implement that though. Perhaps some sort of "check pin" like in a Cormax or Everest series lock, but that somehow interacted with notches or something on the key pins. Of course your tolerances would have to be such that the check pin always bound first...

[nothumbs]

https://gizmodo.com/this-mystery-bike-locks-hidden-keyhole-makes-it-un-pick-1568134661

As I recall there was quickly found a bypass or some other flaw, I'll leave finding that info for others.

[GWiens2001]

Yeah, they did for the Forever lock. They even came up with a way to pick the EVVA MCS. Same guy who picked the MCS (a member here) designed a pick for the Abloy Protec and Protec 2, as well as the other Abloys and numerous other locks. Nothing stays "pick proof" forever.

Gordon

[Mrhappyface]

So I tried to get my 3D modelling software working on my home PC but it lags really bad. Might have a look see if I can find a cheap new graphics card online and maybe some more RAM, my PC needs an update anyway.

[nothumbs]

https://gawker.com/unpickable-forever-lock-totally-pickable-1589893600

Coverage of the bump key hack that defeated the Forever lock.

https://www.dailydot.com/unclick/unpickable-forever-lock-broken/

[rphillips52]

Several lever locks from Britain and Germany have been invented with mechanisms not directly accessible from the keyhole. There are active keys which have to transform inside the lock, or a bit which separates from the stem and is carried into the mechanism, before being returned on completion of the operation.

Although the pin tumbler lock invented by Yale (and variations) is now the most common key mechanism in most of the world, other key mechanisms are available and used. However, the security of a lock is a compromise: security, cost, and convenience. A lock was invented (the first detector lock (not including earlier locks which counted openings)) which either trapped a wrong key, or jammed after a picking attempt. As it could not then be unlocked, it had to be broken open. It was not a commercial success. Few extraordinary locks have been, in the long run. Locks of adequate security for their use, convenience and economic cost, are the successes, such as Yale's pintumbler lock. Even compromising security for cheapness has not prevented the tubular lock being most successful in some parts of the world. Although some profile locks are bumped by burglars, far more are snapped.

PRICE, G: Treatise on fire and thief-proof depositories, and locks and keys
several modern reprints, or c£1,100+ if an original 1856 copy can be found.

PULFORD, G: High-security mechanical locks. Butterworth-Heinemann, 2007