Lock Picking 101 Forum
A community dedicated to the fun and ethical hobby of lock picking.
       

Lock Picking 101 Home
Login
Profile
Members
Forum Rules
Frequent Forum Questions
SEARCH
View New Posts
View Active Topics


Live Chat on Discord
LP101 Forum Chat
Keypicking Forum Chat
Reddit r/lockpicking Chat



Learn How to Pick Locks
FAQs & General Questions
Got Beginner Questions?
Pick-Fu [Intermediate Level]


Ask a Locksmith
This Old Lock
This Old Safe
What Lock Should I Buy?



Hardware
Locks
Lock Patents
Lock Picks
Lock Bumping
Lock Impressioning
Lock Pick Guns, Snappers
European Locks & Picks
The Machine Shop
The Open Source Lock
Handcuffs


Member Spotlight
Member Introductions
Member Lock Collections
Member Social Media


Off Topic
General Chatter
Other Puzzles


Locksmith Business Info
Training & Licensing
Running a Business
Keyways & Key Blanks
Key Machines
Master Keyed Systems
Closers and Crash Bars
Life Safety Compliance
Electronic Locks & Access
Locksmith Supplies
Locksmith Lounge


Buy Sell Trade
Buy - Sell - Trade
It came from Ebay!


Advanced Topics
Membership Information
Special Access Required:
High Security Locks
Vending Locks
Advanced Lock Pick Tools
Bypass Techniques
Safes & Safe Locks
Automotive Entry & Tools
Advanced Buy/Sell/Trade


Locksport Groups
Locksport Local
Chapter President's Office
Locksport Board Room
 

How to advance to intermediate picking?

Having read the FAQ's you are still unfulfilled and seek more enlightenment, so post your general lock picking questions here.
Forum rules
Do not post safe related questions in this sub forum! Post them in This Old Safe

The sub forum you are currently in is for asking Beginner Hobby Lock Picking questions only.

How to advance to intermediate picking?

Postby KoolBreeze420 » 17 Jun 2020 2:17

So I bought the Sparrows training locks. I have the 4 progressive locks and the cutaway. I also have the re-pinning kit with the coloured keys. Now that I'm writing this I realize I have yet to pick the Lvl 5 progressive lock. What I'm really wondering is what type of pin should I start trying in the cutaway next. All serrated, all spools, all mushrooms and then a mixture of them how would these pins rate in difficulty? If standard pins are 1 where do the rest fall in? I think I'm starting to get the "feel" of binding pins and the binding order. I have a decent set of picks 4 different kits in all, ranging in quality. I wanted to get a feel for picks and find the ones I like so I could buy higher quality picks of the ones I really like.
Thanks in advance for your time and wisdom.
Best Regards,
KoolBreeze
KoolBreeze420
 
Posts: 4
Joined: 9 Jun 2020 0:21

Re: How to advance to intermediate picking?

Postby GWiens2001 » 17 Jun 2020 7:52

Cutaway locks will not help your picking at this point. All the cutaways do (aside from looking cool) is allow you to gain an understanding of what is going on inside the lock as it is operating/ being picked. Cutaways DO NOT pick like a normal lock.

Gordon
Just when you finally think you have learned it all, that is when you learn that you don't know anything yet.
User avatar
GWiens2001
Site Admin
 
Posts: 7550
Joined: 3 Sep 2012 16:24
Location: Arizona, United States

Re: How to advance to intermediate picking?

Postby nothumbs » 17 Jun 2020 22:42

Would that be true for disc detainer locks?
It's a good day when I learn something new.
nothumbs
 
Posts: 473
Joined: 22 Mar 2007 15:23
Location: Northern California

Re: How to advance to intermediate picking?

Postby GWiens2001 » 17 Jun 2020 23:22

It does apply to a disc detainer lock. It applies least to a warded lock, followed by a lever lock.

The best way of advancing is practice. Sometimes it helps to try picking a lock well over your level and progressively pin it. You may not get it at first, but paying attention will hone your skills. Mul-T-Lock and Schlage Everest are good intermediate locks. Then a Schlage Primus.

Believe it or not, a Medeco mortise cylinder did a world of good for my practicing. Also, they come with set screws in the top, so they are very easy to add and remove pin stacks.

Gordon
Just when you finally think you have learned it all, that is when you learn that you don't know anything yet.
User avatar
GWiens2001
Site Admin
 
Posts: 7550
Joined: 3 Sep 2012 16:24
Location: Arizona, United States

Re: How to advance to intermediate picking?

Postby ausGeoff » 20 Jun 2020 8:25

KoolBreeze420 wrote:So I bought the Sparrows training locks. I have the 4 progressive locks and the cutaway. I also have the re-pinning kit with the coloured keys. Now that I'm writing this I realize I have yet to pick the Lvl 5 progressive lock. What I'm really wondering is what type of pin should I start trying in the cutaway next. All serrated, all spools, all mushrooms and then a mixture of them how would these pins rate in difficulty? If standard pins are 1 where do the rest fall in? I think I'm starting to get the "feel" of binding pins and the binding order. I have a decent set of picks 4 different kits in all, ranging in quality. I wanted to get a feel for picks and find the ones I like so I could buy higher quality picks of the ones I really like.
Thanks in advance for your time and wisdom.
Best Regards,
KoolBreeze


As a newbie, I investigated the Sparrows progressive cutaway training locks, and decided that, given their high Aussie
pricing, they just weren't the money. And after further research, I have to agree with Gordon, who says "cutaway locks
will not help your picking at this point..."

I reckon that developing a delicate sense of feel—through the tool—listening carefully, and patience are the best training
"tools". There are any number of YouTube videos showing how lock pins function, but to me, actually seeing the pins as
you pick them can hold back your progress as a picker. You can become overconfident aided by those visual cues, and
believe that you're doing much better than you are in reality. (Just my noob opinion)

As a personal example, I found the ubiquitous, clear plastic training padlock to be almost useless after easily popping it
open 2 or 3 times, and was almost a waste of money considering all the on-line demonstrations of how locks work. I guess
at the least it gives me something to wow my non-picker friends with LOL.

I'd also be guessing, KoolBreeze, that if you've already purchased four pick sets then you'll have, amongst them, enough
tools of sufficient profile, base material, and thicknesses to accomplish most "normal" picking tasks. My first set was the
SouthOrd PXS-14 which thus far has served me well. You might like to let us know the brands of the 4 sets you have now.       :)
User avatar
ausGeoff
 
Posts: 12
Joined: 22 May 2020 0:49
Location: Victoria, Australia.

Re: How to advance to intermediate picking?

Postby GWiens2001 » 20 Jun 2020 9:28

Try to keep track in your mind what is happening inside the lock. Visualize that the pin you just felt set at the shear line. Was it the third pin stack? The second? Remember that it is set, but don't be afraid to make sure it is still set.

If you keep visualizing the lock and what things are done, just as you could see on the clear acrylic locks, then you will be well on your way to becoming an intermediate picker.

Gordon
Just when you finally think you have learned it all, that is when you learn that you don't know anything yet.
User avatar
GWiens2001
Site Admin
 
Posts: 7550
Joined: 3 Sep 2012 16:24
Location: Arizona, United States

Re: How to advance to intermediate picking?

Postby KoolBreeze420 » 25 Jun 2020 15:42

ausGeoff wrote:
KoolBreeze420 wrote:So I bought the Sparrows training locks. I have the 4 progressive locks and the cutaway. I also have the re-pinning kit with the coloured keys. Now that I'm writing this I realize I have yet to pick the Lvl 5 progressive lock. What I'm really wondering is what type of pin should I start trying in the cutaway next. All serrated, all spools, all mushrooms and then a mixture of them how would these pins rate in difficulty? If standard pins are 1 where do the rest fall in? I think I'm starting to get the "feel" of binding pins and the binding order. I have a decent set of picks 4 different kits in all, ranging in quality. I wanted to get a feel for picks and find the ones I like so I could buy higher quality picks of the ones I really like.
Thanks in advance for your time and wisdom.
Best Regards,
KoolBreeze


As a newbie, I investigated the Sparrows progressive cutaway training locks, and decided that, given their high Aussie
pricing, they just weren't the money. And after further research, I have to agree with Gordon, who says "cutaway locks
will not help your picking at this point..."

I reckon that developing a delicate sense of feel—through the tool—listening carefully, and patience are the best training
"tools". There are any number of YouTube videos showing how lock pins function, but to me, actually seeing the pins as
you pick them can hold back your progress as a picker. You can become overconfident aided by those visual cues, and
believe that you're doing much better than you are in reality. (Just my noob opinion)

As a personal example, I found the ubiquitous, clear plastic training padlock to be almost useless after easily popping it
open 2 or 3 times, and was almost a waste of money considering all the on-line demonstrations of how locks work. I guess
at the least it gives me something to wow my non-picker friends with LOL.

I'd also be guessing, KoolBreeze, that if you've already purchased four pick sets then you'll have, amongst them, enough
tools of sufficient profile, base material, and thicknesses to accomplish most "normal" picking tasks. My first set was the
SouthOrd PXS-14 which thus far has served me well. You might like to let us know the brands of the 4 sets you have now. :)
ausGeoff wrote:
KoolBreeze420 wrote:So I bought the Sparrows training locks. I have the 4 progressive locks and the cutaway. I also have the re-pinning kit with the coloured keys. Now that I'm writing this I realize I have yet to pick the Lvl 5 progressive lock. What I'm really wondering is what type of pin should I start trying in the cutaway next. All serrated, all spools, all mushrooms and then a mixture of them how would these pins rate in difficulty? If standard pins are 1 where do the rest fall in? I think I'm starting to get the "feel" of binding pins and the binding order. I have a decent set of picks 4 different kits in all, ranging in quality. I wanted to get a feel for picks and find the ones I like so I could buy higher quality picks of the ones I really like.
Thanks in advance for your time and wisdom.
Best Regards,
KoolBreeze


As a newbie, I investigated the Sparrows progressive cutaway training locks, and decided that, given their high Aussie
pricing, they just weren't the money. And after further research, I have to agree with Gordon, who says "cutaway locks
will not help your picking at this point..."

I reckon that developing a delicate sense of feel—through the tool—listening carefully, and patience are the best training
"tools". There are any number of YouTube videos showing how lock pins function, but to me, actually seeing the pins as
you pick them can hold back your progress as a picker. You can become overconfident aided by those visual cues, and
believe that you're doing much better than you are in reality. (Just my noob opinion)

As a personal example, I found the ubiquitous, clear plastic training padlock to be almost useless after easily popping it
open 2 or 3 times, and was almost a waste of money considering all the on-line demonstrations of how locks work. I guess
at the least it gives me something to wow my non-picker friends with LOL.

I'd also be guessing, KoolBreeze, that if you've already purchased four pick sets then you'll have, amongst them, enough
tools of sufficient profile, base material, and thicknesses to accomplish most "normal" picking tasks. My first set was the
SouthOrd PXS-14 which thus far has served me well. You might like to let us know the brands of the 4 sets you have now. :)


If it wasn't for the cutaway I would have never been able to progress as fast as I have the training locks are pretty awesome they can be populated up to 6 pin locks so you can practice with all sorts of combinations even setting up a master key set. Now BosnianBill disagrees with you when it comes to the Sparrow's locks. I couldn't pick the 5 pins for a long time and I was only finally able to master it by switching between the cutaway and the 5 pin lock and now I have mastered it. I can now pick a 5 pin lock in mere seconds now thanks to the cutaway and the progressive locks now even the commercial locks I struggled with I can now open in seconds. By utilizing the cutaway it allows me to visualize what's happening much easier and this allows me to test tension control. $35.00 for 4 6 pins locks, in my opinion, are a great deal. If you don't know who Bill is here's his take on these locks and the prime motivation as to why I bought them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j089_yM1Beo
None of this lets me know how to progress. Using the key set from Sparrows I pinned the 6 pin key up and I have now mastered it as well. People have different ways of learning and I can tell you right now without that cutaway from Sparrows I would not have gotten past 4 pins yet. I have read may things people who condemn the cutaways just as the responses I got here and I and Bill lock noob and many other's disagree with this notion.
How do you visualise what a spool, serrated or mushroom pin is doing in the lock without a cutaway?
KoolBreeze420
 
Posts: 4
Joined: 9 Jun 2020 0:21

Re: How to advance to intermediate picking?

Postby KoolBreeze420 » 25 Jun 2020 15:48

GWiens2001 wrote:Try to keep track in your mind what is happening inside the lock. Visualize that the pin you just felt set at the shear line. Was it the third pin stack? The second? Remember that it is set, but don't be afraid to make sure it is still set.

If you keep visualizing the lock and what things are done, just as you could see on the clear acrylic locks, then you will be well on your way to becoming an intermediate picker.

Gordon


I know this and it's not what I'm asking. What I want to know is what security pins are the hardest. How do commercial locks utilize security pins is it a mix is serrated easier then spool or mushrooms?
Since this post, I have now mastered the 5 pin and just now mere minutes ago, I picked my 1st 6 pin lock. I want to start making my locks harder to pick but I don't want to start with the hardest security pin setup. Which pin setup do you recommend for the next level this is what I am asking. Is it all serrated is it 1S 1R 1S 1M 1SP type of setup?
KoolBreeze420
 
Posts: 4
Joined: 9 Jun 2020 0:21

Re: How to advance to intermediate picking?

Postby KoolBreeze420 » 25 Jun 2020 15:57

GWiens2001 wrote:Cutaway locks will not help your picking at this point. All the cutaways do (aside from looking cool) is allow you to gain an understanding of what is going on inside the lock as it is operating/ being picked. Cutaways DO NOT pick like a normal lock.

Gordon

Sorry, I disagree and this is why. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j089_yM1Beo
Tell me how do you visualize and feel what a spool, mushroom or serrated pin is doing in the lock without a cutaway to help?
Without the cutaway, I would be completely stuck at 4 pins, I want to progress into security pins. I would greatly appreciate some tips related to my questions. How do you know the cutaway won't help me just because they may not have helped you? Seriously your comment is quite negative in nature and I don't appreciate it at all. Do you even know anything about the Sparrows practice locks?
KoolBreeze420
 
Posts: 4
Joined: 9 Jun 2020 0:21

Re: How to advance to intermediate picking?

Postby GWiens2001 » 25 Jun 2020 18:06

KoolBreeze420 wrote:
GWiens2001 wrote:Cutaway locks will not help your picking at this point. All the cutaways do (aside from looking cool) is allow you to gain an understanding of what is going on inside the lock as it is operating/ being picked. Cutaways DO NOT pick like a normal lock.

Gordon

Sorry, I disagree and this is why. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j089_yM1Beo
Tell me how do you visualize and feel what a spool, mushroom or serrated pin is doing in the lock without a cutaway to help?
Without the cutaway, I would be completely stuck at 4 pins, I want to progress into security pins. I would greatly appreciate some tips related to my questions. How do you know the cutaway won't help me just because they may not have helped you? Seriously your comment is quite negative in nature and I don't appreciate it at all. Do you even know anything about the Sparrows practice locks?


OK, buddy. Pull in your horns. I was giving honest feedback to answer your question on how to progress to the next level in your picking. Your comment about do I even know anything about the Sparrows practice locks was insulting. I have had probably every kind of practice lock Sparrows makes, and quite a few others as well. The one practice lock I prefer is Mr Wizard's practice lock.

I was not trying to be negative, and while I would not have had a problem with you expressing that you did not appreciate my comment, you are stepping over the line with derogatory comments. I was not trying to give insult to you. I was trying to give feedback to answer your actual question on how to progress to the intermediate level. Every person learns differently, and I respect that. It sounded like you understand the basics of how a lock works. That is the primary thing you learn from a cutaway. That does not mean that cutaway locks have no place. I have dozens of cutaway locks, because I think they are fascinating.

How do you progress into security pins? By putting them into your practice locks and practicing. You very quickly learn what it feels like when you have a spool pin. The hardest pins for me to learn were serrated pins. I am glad you find cutaway locks help you with learning. If it works for you, great. I used to teach lockpicking at a local hackerspace, and found that for a majority of people, they found cutaways to be harder to apply what they are learning to non-cutaway locks because they are learning to pick visually. Lock picking is not really a visual thing. It is tactile. Picking is a skill of feel.

My picking started to take off when I started keeping a few lock cylinders, a tension wrench/turning tool and a hook pick next to my bed. If I woke up in the middle of the night, I'd reach over and pick up the pick, tension wrench and a lock cylinder. With the lights still off, I had to pay attention to what I was feeling from the tension wrench and the pick. Especially from the tension wrench. I quickly gained skill by picking in the dark. It is also how I finally got skilled at opening American padlocks with serrated and spoorated pins. Hearing the pins set is also a clue. That is what gave away what was happening with serrated pins. The sound of a false set and a real set on a serrated pin is actually clear, once you know what to listen for. Can't really explain it. You have to hear it.

The only time picking in the dark worked against me was when I picked up a Schlage FSIC, and still half asleep, put the tension wrench in the back of the core, not the front. :D

So, once again, I was not intending to be negative. I apologize if it was taken that way. I was trying to help steer you towards your stated goal of progressing to the next level, based on my years of experience with teaching dozens of people how to pick over the years. But also note that I am an admin on this site. So please try to keep from flaming or insulting myself or any member of the forum. It is in the rules. It can also result in being banned from the site at the discretion of any admin or moderator.

Gordon
Just when you finally think you have learned it all, that is when you learn that you don't know anything yet.
User avatar
GWiens2001
Site Admin
 
Posts: 7550
Joined: 3 Sep 2012 16:24
Location: Arizona, United States

Re: How to advance to intermediate picking?

Postby Squelchtone » 26 Jun 2020 7:32

KoolBreeze420 wrote:
GWiens2001 wrote:Try to keep track in your mind what is happening inside the lock. Visualize that the pin you just felt set at the shear line. Was it the third pin stack? The second? Remember that it is set, but don't be afraid to make sure it is still set.

If you keep visualizing the lock and what things are done, just as you could see on the clear acrylic locks, then you will be well on your way to becoming an intermediate picker.

Gordon


I know this and it's not what I'm asking. What I want to know is what security pins are the hardest. How do commercial locks utilize security pins is it a mix is serrated easier then spool or mushrooms?
Since this post, I have now mastered the 5 pin and just now mere minutes ago, I picked my 1st 6 pin lock. I want to start making my locks harder to pick but I don't want to start with the hardest security pin setup. Which pin setup do you recommend for the next level this is what I am asking. Is it all serrated is it 1S 1R 1S 1M 1SP type of setup?


Commercial locks do not commonly mix security pin types in the real world. A challenge lock sent to Bosnian Bill or LockpickingLawyer and loaded with a bunch of different security pins as well as custom ones someone made on their lathe does not represent what you would get out of the box at Home Depot or the local locksmith shop.

Schlage typically has a spool pin or two
Medeco only uses Mushrooms and only one or two
American Lock uses serrated pins

Spool pins are probably easiest to detect with a false set and over come. then for picking difficulty, mushrooms pins, then serrated pins.

and guess what? that's only *my* opinion. 10 other people on youtube or /r/lockpicking or on here will have their own experience and tell you that they can pick serrated all day long but mushrooms give them trouble.

GWiens2001 already gave you the best answer way up in the top of the thread. To advance to intermediate picking, all you need is practice.

Seriously, put down the cutaway and try to develop your mental eye. How are you ever going to walk up to a door in real life and pick it if it isn't a cut away or acrylic model for you to take a look at?

Please mind you manners and tone around here, you're new, and being a bit rude and very demanding to the extremely experienced people here. If you don't want our wisdom and advice, go back to watching youtube videos.

Squelchtone
Image
User avatar
Squelchtone
Site Admin
 
Posts: 11307
Joined: 11 May 2006 0:41
Location: right behind you.

Re: How to advance to intermediate picking?

Postby pemlock » 27 Jun 2020 3:58

Actually, ASSA used to mix pin types in their high-end locks in the pre-Twin era.
Here's an example, an old 700:
Image
As you can see, torpedoes in the bottom, a gin bottle, and those nasty "ASSA" pins upstairs. (Don't know if they have a name.) Combined with counter milling in the core in position 2, 3, and 5... the fact that you could drive a truck into the keyway didn't help, extremely challenging pick. And it was definitely a commercial lock, since it's master keyed. Their low-end locks from this era, on the other hand, had all standard pins.

I also have a Roca (fairly uknown brand) with a similar mix of ASSA pins and spools upstairs, but standard only downstairs. (I suspect Roca were licensed, or even owned, by ASSA actually.)

I have yet to pick an ASSA Twin, so I don't know if they still mix pin types like this.

So I guess the bottom line is, you need to know a little about the locks you attempt, or at least expect that some might turn out to be way over your skill level.
pemlock
 
Posts: 90
Joined: 21 Jun 2019 5:00
Location: Sweden

Re: How to advance to intermediate picking?

Postby pemlock » 27 Jun 2020 5:21

KoolBreeze420 wrote:
GWiens2001 wrote:I know this and it's not what I'm asking. What I want to know is what security pins are the hardest. How do commercial locks utilize security pins is it a mix is serrated easier then spool or mushrooms?
Since this post, I have now mastered the 5 pin and just now mere minutes ago, I picked my 1st 6 pin lock. I want to start making my locks harder to pick but I don't want to start with the hardest security pin setup. Which pin setup do you recommend for the next level this is what I am asking. Is it all serrated is it 1S 1R 1S 1M 1SP type of setup?


... and, adding what went missing from my previous post:

How hard pins are is not necessarily on a linear scale. Most probably think those ASSA pins together with counter milling are among the harder ones, but mostly they are different, not harder or easier than any other. I sometimes find it easier to pick locks with spools than with just standard pins...
You need to know how to pick each different pin type, so in which combination doesn't really matter. As seen, all kinds of combinations might be used out there.
pemlock
 
Posts: 90
Joined: 21 Jun 2019 5:00
Location: Sweden

Re: How to advance to intermediate picking?

Postby GWiens2001 » 27 Jun 2020 8:04

Those ASSA pins, combined with the counter milling you mention, are the hardest locks I have picked. Those Christmas trees are especially evil. Getting them out of the counter milling causes some of the other pins to drop.

ASSA Twin is pretty much top of the food chain for difficulties.

Another fun one that is challenging is the TrioVing trampoline pins. Sort of a double mushroom, with the center widening to the full width of the end of the pins. We call them trampoline pins because you keep shifting from one pin to another and back again. The getting the wide center of a pin past the shear line, or the wide bottom, will cause more pins to drop.

Gordon
Just when you finally think you have learned it all, that is when you learn that you don't know anything yet.
User avatar
GWiens2001
Site Admin
 
Posts: 7550
Joined: 3 Sep 2012 16:24
Location: Arizona, United States

Re: How to advance to intermediate picking?

Postby Squelchtone » 27 Jun 2020 9:17

pemlock wrote:Actually, ASSA used to mix pin types in their high-end locks in the pre-Twin era.
Here's an example, an old 700:


So I said that commercial locks do not *commonly* mix security pin types in the real world, and you dig up the one rare one that did in the late 1970s. My point was that here in North America where the OPs is from that is not common practice at all. And sure you can call Medeco and order ARX pinned cylinder which use random pins in all upper chambers, but that's a custom job, and not something I would be practicing for in order to become an intermediate lock picker.

I do wish more North American based lock companies took pin security more seriously just as European companies have already done for years, but we have made great strides over the last 15 years in shaming companies like Kwikset to actually start using spool pins.

Thanks
Squelchtone
Image
User avatar
Squelchtone
Site Admin
 
Posts: 11307
Joined: 11 May 2006 0:41
Location: right behind you.

Next

Return to Got Questions? - Ask Beginner Hobby Lockpicking Questions Here

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 21 guests