Picking locks upside down.

[pipboujalay]

Hi all

I would like to start a conversation in the picking community about picking locks upside down. Is it valid?

If you take a look around YouTube you will notice that most videos of people picking euro cylinders, pick them upside down. This question only really means anything with regard to euro cylinders. Padlocks can be pick anyway you want because they are not fixed to anything, so you can hold it anyway you want to. Rim cylinders are all ways picked the right way up (pins at the top) but when it comes to euro cylinders, they are all ways picked upside down. When they are in the door they have the pins at the bottom. Should this be considered a valid pick?

My opinion is, no it shouldn't be considered a valid pick!

I'm guilty myself. The first lock I opened was a 5 pin yale night latch. So I first learnt to pick with the pins at the top. Then carried on with that method when I got some euro cylinders. It took me a while to realise it isn't how the lock would be installed, due to inexperience. But as I learnt more about locks and picking, it became obvious. So now I pick a lock the way you would find it in the door. Rim cylinders, pins up. Euro cylinder, pins down.

I guess my goal with this is to introduce a new standard. Which is. For an open to be considered a valid open, it should be picked the way you would find in the door.

What do you think? Would be good to get your opinion.

I would really like bosnianbill and LPL involved in this conversation. Because they are the two main offenders. But nearly everybody is guilty. So if anybody can give them a nudge. It would be much appreciated.

[GWiens2001]

Whether the lock is upside down depends on where you come from.

Gordon

[pipboujalay]

Hi Gordon.

Thanks for the reply. But I have to disagree.

I think im right in saying the UK and Europe are main places where you will find euro cylinders. They are all fitted with the pins at the bottom. So even if you live in America., a euro cylinder is fitted with the pins at the bottom.

We don't use KIK cylinders in the UK there will be some out there I'm sure. But the vast majority of locks are rim and euro cylinders. I own two mul t lock KIK cylinders. They would be fitted with the pins up. So should be picked this way. If somebody in America buys a euro cylinder, it would be fitted with the pins down. So should be picked with the pins down.

I have certainly never seen a euro cylinder fitted with the pins at the top.

[GWiens2001]

Hi Gordon.

Thanks for the reply. But I have to disagree.

I think im right in saying the UK and Europe are main places where you will find euro cylinders. They are all fitted with the pins at the bottom. So even if you live in America., a euro cylinder is fitted with the pins at the bottom.

We don't use KIK cylinders in the UK there will be some out there I'm sure. But the vast majority of locks are rim and euro cylinders. I own two mul t lock KIK cylinders. They would be fitted with the pins up. So should be picked this way. If somebody in America buys a euro cylinder, it would be fitted with the pins down. So should be picked with the pins down.

I have certainly never seen a euro cylinder fitted with the pins at the top.

My point being that in general the lock does not care which way the pins are oriented. There is no problem with flipping the lock over and picking it with the pins in the other direction. It just depends on what you are used to.

Gordon

[pipboujalay]

This is true. The lock knows no different.

But then I might as well take out 5 of the 6 pins to make it a one pin lock. The lock also doesn't care if it's a 1 pin or 10 pin.

The point of the conversation is

Is it a valid open. Removing pins makes it invalid, so does picking the lock upside down.

A locksmith wouldn't stand on his head to open a euro cylinder because he is used to picking with pins on top. He would have to pick it as he finds it installed in the door, and so should we!

Picking a lock upside down is about making it easter for ones self. If somebody who only picks locks with pins on top opened a lock 10 times with ease. Then tryed to open it the pins on the bottom. They would probably fail to open it because it's a different technique. You would still be locked out.

[femurat]

I pick locks upside down.

Are we talking locksport or locksmith?
If you pick for fun and for competitions, you're allowed to hold the lock however you like. Not only upside down, but also in your hands or in the vice.
If you're a locksmith, you have to open the lock the way it is.

Cheers

[pipboujalay]

Hi femurat

Thank you for your input.

Defo talking locksports here. It will interesting to see how the conversation develops over time.

I would like to find out people's options on this. Because I have never meet anouther picker in the flesh so i only have mine to go on.

But I like the fact pickers are a rear beast.

[demux]

I would say that even a locksmith in the field does, in certain circumstances, have a certain degree of freedom to change the orientation. Consider the case of a padlock on a chain or a hasp. Even for a door lock, he can approach it standing, kneeling, sitting, offset to one side or the other, etc. Granted that doesn't change the actual orientation of the lock, but it will change how he approaches the job.

Beyond that, I tend to agree with femurat, if you're picking for fun pick in whatever way you find easiest if you're looking for an easy pick, or whatever way you find most difficult if you're looking for a challenge.

[pemlock]

I've heard people having opinions about this. Some seem to think it only "for real" if you do it "right". The same people also often think that you're not "allowed" to put padlocks in a vice but have to hold them in your hand while picking.

Personally, I don't care. Anything that works is fine. I often pick locks with pins down (despite living in Sweden where all locks are the right way, not the euro-lock way. ) Partly because I simply think I get better control of the pick when I pick "down", and partly because of osteoarthritis in my shoulders which can making working the other way painful if it's a long and difficult pick.

I also put padlocks in the vice sometimes, also mostly for ergonomic reasons.

[GWiens2001]

I think that a majority of people here would feel that open is open. Even more so with locksmiths.

Gordon

[pipboujalay]

That all depends on what you consider locksports to be, and what kind of a locksmith you are. Not all locksmiths are equal.

When I first started picking I went to my local locksmith. Who (before anybody says he is a rubbish locksmith)is a proper locksmith. Unlike most of them who go straight for the drill to open a lock. Clearly because they no picking skill. With a disassembled yale lock, to ask him about making a repinnable lock. He looked at me for a few seconds and said " you have caught me in a good mood so I will help you out. But if you were talking to my son, he would tell you to get out of the shop " He then gave me several pins, an iseo dimple lock, and a repinning tool. All of which I still have.

But I never really understood why they be reluctant to help, or even dislike lockpickers. But after only a few replies I'm starting to get an insight into why they felt that way. Locksports is unrelated to real world lockpicking. Let's face it, sitting in our comfey chairs with a lock held at the ideal angle in the vice. Upside down because thats how you like it. With no restrictions whatsoever. Is nouthing like what a genuine locksmith will have to face if they need to pick open a lock. When it is installed in the door, at night, in the rain, with the pressure of the home owner to just get it open. It is an entirely different beast. But I get the impression a lot of pickers think they are better at it than most locksmiths. Or think they could walk up to any lock in the real world and pop it open in 1 or 2 minutes. That is just not true. Some could, most can't!

So I guess it comes down to what kind of a picker you want to be. Do you hold yourself to a higher standard and pick locks as you would find it in the real world. Or do you want to be a bedroom/hobby picker? Both are perfectly fine. But clearly if you reproduce the circumstances you will find in the real world, as close as possible. It means more and takes a higher level of skill ,than when you make its as easy for yourself as possible.

History has proven many times that just because most people believe in one particular thing. Doesn't make them right!

[demux]

Wow, lots to respond to in that.

First of all, I would say that many locksmiths don't like pickers/hobbyists/enthusiasts because, especially among the older school, there's a somewhat "us vs. them" mentality that any information on any locks beyond how to insert the key and turn ought to be restricted from the general public. From what I've experienced a couple times, and what many people post about on these forums, this is far more likely to be a source of disdain than any impression a picker/hobbyist may give that he is better or knows more than the locksmith. I would think most locksmiths would be secure enough in their knowledge to be able to easily see through that. To be honest, in your example I'm quite surprised that you were helped by the father but the son would have kicked you out.

Second, any locksmith on a job in the field is primarily concerned with getting the job done. To him time is money. He may start out with his pick set, but most likely just because that's the quickest and least destructive method if it works. If he can't get the job done that way in more than a few minutes, I strongly suspect he'd reach for his bypass tools, then if that doesn't work in a few minutes, for his drill. The last option is the last option not because it's not "pure enough" but because destroying something to get in means he will have to repair or replace it, which takes more of his time and costs more money.

[pipboujalay]

Hi demux

Thanks for chipping in. Much appreached.

I couldn't agree more. With information so freely available now, the cat is well and truly out of the bag. So trying to keep things a secret is just plain old out of date. Better to teach people what a decent lock is.

I fully understand they need to make money so won't sit there for 15 mins trying to pick a lock. There is anouther job to do afterwards.

This is a little of topic. But you are right.

I did have a thought to myself yesterday.
If I had a YouTube channel and picked American locks upside down. Would I get lots of people saying " you are picking the lock upside down " in the comments?

Just a thought.

[demux]

If I had a YouTube channel and picked American locks upside down. Would I get lots of people saying " you are picking the lock upside down " in the comments?

Probably not. Keep in mind "upside down" is kind of a subjective term, and has a lot more to do with the situation the lock is being installed into than anything else. I've see plenty of cylinders installed on doors even in my town with the pins down, either because that's the way the the locking mechanism was set up or because people were just too lazy or didn't know how to flip them around. If there are any examples of cylinders that are specifically designed to go one way or the other and they won't work when flipped, I'm not personally aware of them.

Though, for my part, if given a choice I always prefer to install with the pins up. The reason being, if in the rare case a spring gets broken or overly compressed to the point that it no longer does its job, the lock can still be opened. Also any dirt that does get into the keyway would tend to fall away from the pins and springs, where it would cause the least problems.

[pipboujalay]

I think up side down being a subjective term is only true in America.

Euro cylinders and rim cylinders can only be installed in the orientation they were designed for. Obviously a euro cylinder can't be installed upside down. It won't go in the profile in the door/locking mechanism. A rim cylinder can't be installed upside down because the core is at the bottom. The tail piece won't engage with the latch if someone tryed to install it upside down. Similar to the euro, it won't go in the door.

Comes back to the fact we use d8ffrent styles of locks. Something I think is not taken into account most of the time.