Herring-Hall-Marvin Safe with HHM dial

[MartinHewitt]

The purpose of this is to prevent the lever to get stuck. The gears are forcing movement of all parts. Sticky lube has no chance! From the outside the difference is the sound and feel of gears and that there is only one contact point. Because of the gears the there is also quite a lot of force pressing the fence towards the wheels. This force creates a lot of wear over the decades and the contact point is then quite light.

[JonnyPhenomenon]

I am looking at the "National Locksmith - Guide to manipulation" book at the chapter on friction fence locks. Naturally, I have questions...

first, I followed the steps in chapter 2 of that book to determine how many wheels it has, and it certainly feels like it has only 3.
the combination that is written on the safe is "L44,1,64,5" - and it is written in two places. Since this safe doesnt have a handle to turn, then the dial has to extract the bolt.
if HHM safes and locks always require a counter clockwise turn to extract the bolt, then that "L" was a mistake from the previous owner..
(so did HHM ever sell fire safes with an HHM branded lock that turned clockwise to extract the bolt?)

I tried to find the contact points, which I seemed to find pretty consistently at around 93 and 10. I tried setting the wheel to all of the numbers on the dial to graph the contact points but they results were inconsistent. I should mention, the dial on this safe does not turn very freely. especially when it is pushing all three wheels around, so it is really hard to get a good read on it...
Also, if this were a friction gate lock, would I be able to feel the contact point when I turn clockwise? - because I feel like I am picking up something when I turn both directions...



- side note: any idea how old this thing is?

[MartinHewitt]

First of all, the discussion of manipulation is not allowed in this (part of the) forum. So I can't answer your questions there.

Regarding the lock identification. If you can find two contact points, then it can't be a friction fence lock. Unless one of these is a point where a bump on the dial hits another bump which is appearing to be a contact point while it isn't. Most of the non-friction fence locks require a right turn to retract the bolt. If there is a given combination the dialing direction and sequence is given, but there is normally also a reverse sequence. The Cole cabinets have three numbers and only two dials. The sequence of the three numbers is 3L-2R-1L-R. But it is also possible to convert this to a two-number combination with the sequence 3R-2L-R.

Dating safes is often quite difficult. Sometimes there are lists of serial numbers. Most often there are just general design principles to point to the production date and the references are quite uncertain too. So my personal guess for your safe is 1940s, perhaps 1950s/60s.

[JonnyPhenomenon]

First of all, the discussion of manipulation is not allowed in this (part of the) forum. So I can't answer your questions there.

Oh! ok, sorry about that. I teach vocational Computer Technology classes and physical security is a significant part of network security, so all manners of "penetration testing" are normal conversation in my classroom. I'll be good here.

Regarding the lock identification. If you can find two contact points, then it can't be a friction fence lock. Unless one of these is a point where a bump on the dial hits another bump which is appearing to be a contact point while it isn't. Most of the non-friction fence locks require a right turn to retract the bolt. If there is a given combination the dialing direction and sequence is given, but there is normally also a reverse sequence. The Cole cabinets have three numbers and only two dials. The sequence of the three numbers is 3L-2R-1L-R. But it is also possible to convert this to a two-number combination with the sequence 3R-2L-R.

I assume this would require the use of different numbers, since the dial pics up the wheels at different numbers when it is turned left or right. - in this one, the first and second wheels are off by 4, and the third is off by 7.

Dating safes is often quite difficult. Sometimes there are lists of serial numbers. Most often there are just general design principles to point to the production date and the references are quite uncertain too. So my personal guess for your safe is 1940s, perhaps 1950s/60s.

I'll have to open it up to see if there is any useful information inside...

[MartinHewitt]

First of all, the discussion of manipulation is not allowed in this (part of the) forum. So I can't answer your questions there.

Oh! ok, sorry about that. I teach vocational Computer Technology classes and physical security is a significant part of network security, so all manners of "penetration testing" are normal conversation in my classroom. I'll be good here.

There are lock sport forums where it is allowed and forums where it isn't. This is the personal decision of the forum owner. Actually here is a section for people who have written a number of meaningful posts where discussion about safe opening is allowed and of course it is allowed to discuss it in personal messages.

I assume this (direction conversion) would require the use of different numbers, since the dial pics up the wheels at different numbers when it is turned left or right. - in this one, the first and second wheels are off by 4, and the third is off by 7.

Exactly! If you know this off-ness, you can just calculate the other combination.

I'll have to open it up to see if there is any useful information inside...

There is rarely a label with a date on the inside of the safe door and all document dates say only until when it was used at least.

[JonnyPhenomenon]

wait a minute, isnt this site called "LockPicking101"? hahah

[Squelchtone]

wait a minute, isnt this site called "LockPicking101"? hahah

We could tell you how to get into a safe to be helpful, but then we're also helping someone's meth addicted son how to get into their dad's gun safe to do bad things. It's a delicate subject with real world ramifications.

In the open This Old Safe forum we can help someone troubleshoot an old safe when they know the combo but can't dial it open, or if they need general advice on next steps

In the Advanced Topics - Safes & Safe Locks forum we can tell you where to drill a 1/4 inch hole and be inside the safe in 15 minutes.

It's a delicate balance of information exchange. I personally think the manipulation stuff should be ok to put in This Old Safe, but I'm not the forum owner, I just help and volunteer here.

Squelchtone

PS. to be super pedantic, and I hate being a pedant, yes it is called Lockpicking101, but opening safes is not "picking", nor is safe opening a "101" level class material. years ago we had some IRC chat rooms and we actually structured them as #lp101 #lp201 and #lp301 based on the topics being discussed.

[JonnyPhenomenon]

Roger that. I read over the forum rules again. It all makes sense. I also see that the advanced section appears to be restricted to locksmith business owners, which makes sense as well. I can abide.

So aside from trying to maniupulate myself into this safe (or drilling, etc) I don't know what do do about it. it does "feel" like a three wheel combo, and it "feels" like a "non-friction type" lock. the combination written on the side is just taunting me...

I sprayed some wd40 around the dial in hopes it might do *Something*, and I warmed it up with a heat gun in hopes it might soften things up inside... I would prefer not to have to cut it open (or drill). its a neat little safe.

[MartinHewitt]

If you see this as a fun project I strongly believe you will open that safe by manipulation.

[Squelchtone]

I also see that the advanced section appears to be restricted to locksmith business owners,

Well.. not exactly. Everyone here has access to the Locksmith Business Information sub forum, feel free to poke around: viewforum.php?f=41

The Advanced topics are:

High Security Locks
Advanced Lock Picking Tools
Bypass Techniques
Safes & Safe Locks
Automotive Entry & Tools
Advanced Buy/Sell/Trade area (as opposed to the public Buy Sell Trade area)

Here's a screen shot in case you may not be able to view it (click for full size image)


I admit that those sections and some of the forum rules need work and some freshening up to keep up with current times. This forum has been around since 2004, and is volunteer run, so the wheels of progress don't turn fast.

We'll be happy to do everything we can to help you get into that safe, and I think you've already learned a lot in a shot amount of time.

Thanks,
Squelchtone

[MartinHewitt]

Roger that. I read over the forum rules again. It all makes sense. I also see that the advanced section appears to be restricted to locksmith business owners, which makes sense as well. I can abide.

Actually, it is not restricted to locksmiths, but to people who earned here some trust by participation in the discussion.