AMSEC Safe w/ "PSP" Mechanical Lock

[TR1PP1N]

Hello,

I bought a used "Amsec" branded safe with a 1/2" thick steel door, and 3-number mechanical combination lock (which has a "PSP" logo on the dial) from a safe dealer/servicer several years ago.

I've used the safe for many years without any problems, until now. I haven't opened the safe in nearly a month, and when I attempted to, the shank would not drop, and the door remains locked.

I've opened the safe at least a hundred times since purchasing it. The combination is relativity normal, except the 3rd number is between 0-20 in the so called "forbidden zone" (you can easily feel where it is when turning the dial) but I've never had a problem until now. When I manipulate the lock now, there is no difference in "feel" or sound as before, except that after dialing in the 3rd number and turning clockwise, the dial just keeps spinning instead of catching anything and withdrawing the shank.

I've done some research and tried some basic troubleshooting methods, including dialing in the final number and banging on the safe to get the shank to drop, offsetting the combo by a few numbers in both directions in case of wheelspin/spline slippage, jiggled the door lever while on the final dial turn, etc... I sat there and entered the combo over 50 times (I am 100% certain it is the correct combination), and nothing seems to work.

I cannot move the safe itself, as it is very heavy, and bolted down to the floor structure with lag screws that can only be accessed from the inside of the safe. Besides hiring somebody to drill into the safe (therefore destroying it) is there anything I can do to troubleshoot this?

Thanks in advance. Any advice would be appreciated.

[TR1PP1N]

UPDATE:

I opened it.

But I had to do the exact REVERSE of the normal opening method. I had to go clockwise (1st number), counterclockwise (2nd number), clockwise (3rd number), counterclockwise (shank drop).

I swear, this is not the way I have ever opened the the safe before... wth is going on? Am I just going insane!?!?

[MartinHewitt]

Having the last number inside the forbidden zone can put a lot of stress on the last wheel. Its effect can be seen immediately in some cases or after a long delay in other cases. Sometimes a pin rips of and an opening by the dial alone is not possible any more. I your case I suspect that the combination has shifted slightly. My recommendation would have been to try your third number with a few numbers up and down. If you open the lock you can dial in your normal combination and check the alignment of the gates.

Don't close the door until you are 100% sure it works! When you got it working again, try to lock and unlock it at least three times with the door open!

My recommendation is to swap out the lock for a new one because a pin or the interlocking mechanism of a wheel might be weakened. (Weakened pin => broken pin => locksmith; weakened interlock => shifting combination => lots of trying and guessing) If this is not an option, then at least change the combination.

[TR1PP1N]

Having the last number inside the forbidden zone can put a lot of stress on the last wheel. Its effect can be seen immediately in some cases or after a long delay in other cases. Sometimes a pin rips of and an opening by the dial alone is not possible any more. I your case I suspect that the combination has shifted slightly. My recommendation would have been to try your third number with a few numbers up and down. If you open the lock you can dial in your normal combination and check the alignment of the gates.

Don't close the door until you are 100% sure it works! When you got it working again, try to lock and unlock it at least three times with the door open!

My recommendation is to swap out the lock for a new one because a pin or the interlocking mechanism of a wheel might be weakened. (Weakened pin => broken pin => locksmith; weakened interlock => shifting combination => lots of trying and guessing) If this is not an option, then at least change the combination.

Thanks for your reply!

I was able to get the lock to open, however I discovered something I never noticed before:

Oddly, the action is reversed. You move to the 1st number going clockwise, not counterclockwise, and therefore the 3rd number is rendered useless because after entering the 1st and 2nd number you can just keep turning the dial clockwise past the 3rd number until the lever catches... (contrary to my previous post... I did not turn it counterclockwise after the 3rd number, I just went in the same direction to get it to catch the lever). If you try to enter the correct combination the "normal" way the lock doesn't open whatsoever...

So I'm guessing I got screwed by the dealer who didn't know what they were doing when they set up my combo... or is the lock itself a weird specimen?

[MartinHewitt]

Can you show us some photos?

Description for showing photos here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=60483&p=445410#p445410

[TR1PP1N]

Can you show us some photos?

Description for showing photos here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=60483&p=445410#p445410

Here is the outside of the door:



Here is the inside of the door with the dust cover removed (in open position):



Here is the lock itself:

[MartinHewitt]

Oh, PSP is Pacific Security Products. (Edit: It is a Pacific Security Products safe, not an AMSEC.) Never had a Steel Safe Combination Lock in my hands, but it looks like a cheap copy of a Sargent & Greenleaf 6730. Steel Safe locks are made in China and for a Chinese lock it is actually quite good. It really should dial the same way as a 6730. Perhaps the combination has shifted or your locksmith has indeed done something wrong or something strange. I don't know if a change key from Sargent & Greenleaf does fit that lock or if it needs a genuine Steel Safe change key. I would install a new lock if it were my safe. If you do not want to spend the money I would borrow somewhere a S&G change key, change the combination and do some extra testing. (Standard is at least 3 times lock and unlock with open door.) Because if might be difficult for you to put the wheels correctly to the change index it might be easier to remove the cover (two screws) and align the change key holes of the wheels where the change key hole of the cover will be. Then reattach the cover and only then change the combination. Make sure the cover sits well before closing the door. A fallen of cover or forgotten cover activates the relocker inside the lock.

[MartinHewitt]

Btw. the tube to the right of the lock was the housing of a relocker. It was held by a metal sheet screwed to the back of the lock. All that was probably removed by your locksmith. So it is not unlikely he did something wrong.

[TR1PP1N]

Thanks for your input, Martin. I am going to look into replacing the lock with a new one, and possibly also investing in a re-locking kit that will fit my hardware.

[L4R3L2]

If the lock's construction is similar to a standard S&G 6730, when the final number of the combination is set about three numbers above the edge of the forbidden zone, the nose of the lever can catch on the edge of wheel number three's movable fly, preventing it from dropping into the drive cam for opening.

If this causes a lockout, the solution is to dial the last number using opposite rotation, which, as you discovered worked for you, then the nose will drop into the drive cam when turned to open, because the movable fly will be at the other end of its travel, and out of the way. In your case, you were fortunate that you did not have to convert for changing the direction of rotation. Given your description and discovery, this is very likely the cause of your problem.

Try setting a new combination, avoiding the forbidden zone for the last number, and my guess is that the lock will function normally.

[billdeserthills]

Thanks for your input, Martin. I am going to look into replacing the lock with a new one, and possibly also investing in a re-locking kit that will fit my hardware.

Good luck with that 'relocking kit'

[TR1PP1N]

If the lock's construction is similar to a standard S&G 6730, when the final number of the combination is set about three numbers above the edge of the forbidden zone, the nose of the lever can catch on the edge of wheel number three's movable fly, preventing it from dropping into the drive cam for opening.

If this causes a lockout, the solution is to dial the last number using opposite rotation, which, as you discovered worked for you, then the nose will drop into the drive cam when turned to open, because the movable fly will be at the other end of its travel, and out of the way. In your case, you were fortunate that you did not have to convert for changing the direction of rotation. Given your description and discovery, this is very likely the cause of your problem.

Try setting a new combination, avoiding the forbidden zone for the last number, and my guess is that the lock will function normally.

That is mind-blowing.

In the case that I do have to convert for changing rotation, how does one do this?

Let's say that my original combination is "80-40-20"... is there ANOTHER combination that will unlock the lock when entered in reverse rotation?

[L4R3L2]

In a lock with wheels having movable flies (which I assume this one has), the offset is usually no more than three, usually past the combination number you are dialing. So, for example say your combination is 80 40 20 (LRL) and the offsets are 3, 2, and 1 past the number, your combination dialed the other way would be 83 38 21 (RLR).

[Raymond]

To do this type of diagnosis try setting all three wheels to only 50. Dial the lock to the change index first, insert the change key, and dial left 4 times to stop on 50 at the change index, turn change key and remove. Now try opening the lock with left 4 times to 50. Then try opening the lock with right 4 times to 50, left to opening area and right again to open. With only one number to work with you can test out more easily if you have to dial 50, 49, 48, etc. You can do all of this more quickly by watching the dialing with the back cover off and seeing where each wheel goes under the fence. I would work it this way.

[L4R3L2]

I'm really curious if the fly is the problem in your situation. Before you go changing the combination, if you have a chance could you please take the cover off the back of the lock, dial the combination normally LRL and then back to zero, and get a good close-up picture of the lock mechanism to share?