Safe combination question

[TomNNY]

We bought a house a few years ago and in the cellar, embedded into the cinder blocks that form the base of the chimney, is a safe. It is locked and open. The safe lock says it is a Herring Hall and Marvin lock, the handle has a serial number of 5355 on it. We also have a slip of paper that literally says this on it (thinking it is the combination):

74
L. 21 - 3
R. 92 -2
L. 53 -1
7

I have tried to find out information based on the serial number but have not found any information other than a link to some kind of pdf doc that I am reluctant to download, not knowing anything about the site that provides it. I also looked at information posted by people and there seems to be some consistent information about turning the lock 4-3-2-1 or 3-2-1 L to R, but I have not had any luck trying different combination sequences. Also that the slip of paper has not only the L-R-L numbers, but 74 at the top and 7 at the bottom.

Any suggestions based on this information?

Tom

[Squelchtone]

[Moving this from Ask Beginner Hobby Lockpicking Questions area to This Old Safe area]

[stratmando]

I would remove Locks Back cover, then Spin dial left 4 or more times, and stop when fence falls over the gate(a bar
over a notch is first wheel, Rotate other direction til bar is over next notch, repeat til all aligned, take note of each number, then left til it stops and opens. Just mess with it for a while. The numbers should help. Then try a few time successfully before locking safe. May start by dialing to the right first.

Bet you could get it in 1/2 to an hour.

Also look for something that disabled lock if back cover is removed. If the wheels come off with back cover. Someone here can give info to help. Never had one to work with.
Good Luck

[Squelchtone]

Please share some photos of the outside of the safe, the handle and dial, as well as inside the safe where the lock cover is so we can see just what you are working with. You said the door is open, which as stratmando mentioned means you have access to the lock cover so that you can turn the dial and figure out the combination by watching the wheels align.

Please post photos to a photo sharing site such as imgur.com or photobucket.com or flickr.com and we can give you more accurate advice. Then copy/paste the link to the pictures here.

The serial number is not going to give you the combination on such an old safe. Perhaps the date of manufature, but that's all.

Squelchtone

[stratmando]

Also don't lock Safe with cover removed, if it does have a Relocker, you won't be able to get back in.
The numbers may not be straight forward, but allow owner to open, without writing exact numbers. Particularly the 74 and the 7. You'll know shortly. Let us know how you Do.
Good Luck some more

[Squelchtone]

Here are some links to pictures I took. If there is something else that would be helpful. Also I took a picture of the slip of paper that was inside when we moved in.

I will try taking the screws off the back of the door to see what is behind that metal plate, if it comes off.

https://imgur.com/a/d4DmAyg


https://imgur.com/a/ylutBFt


https://imgur.com/a/KDue1xh


https://imgur.com/a/9MyYN4t


https://imgur.com/a/5yz1lTS


https://imgur.com/LHKmCOV


https://imgur.com/K9u6lN4


https://imgur.com/a/sJXhJgF


Thanks for the replies.

Tom

[Squelchtone]

Take the plate off the inside of the door by removing those 4 silver screws, then you will see the lock mechanism and can figure out the combination and the dialing sequence to make the bolt retract.

[MartinHewitt]

And the 5th screw?

[Squelchtone]

First of all I think I posted my pictures incorrectly in earlier post. I think I did the opposite of what the instructions said. So hopefully these additional ones are correct. If someone can delete the inline pictures on my other post please do.

I took off the back plate. Only the four corner screws were holding it in . There is an additional red bell plate with three more screws. I assume I should take that off, but will make sure someone does not advise against it.

Additional pictures.







Tom

[Raymond]

I am jumping into this thread late. I would interpret the combo note to mean: Turn dial right (at least) 4 times stopping on 74. Then left to stop on the second number the exact 3rd turn, then right to the third number the exact 2nd turn, and left directly to 7. This is R4, L3, R2, L1. With the wheel pack out, observe the dial and drive wheel as you turn left to 7 and open the safe lock. Don't close the door until you have tested all final movements many times.

The red plate with the three screws is the wheel pack. If when the wheel packs comes out, and there are FOUR wheels attached to it, then all the following becomes more complicated. The two last (top) wheels can be set to the same number which will mimic a three wheel safe and you can proceed with the following. (The drive wheel doesn't count)

All wheels except the drive wheel are attached to this plate. The wheels can be taken off the center post for changing. If you do decide to take it apart, lay each piece on a clean surface IN ORDER, so they can go back together in the exact reverse order. Look on each wheel to note that the wheels separate. The inner ring comes apart from the outer ring. On the inner ring has one mark that lines up with the selected (desired) number for that wheel on the outer ring. The wheel on top of the stack, that goes into the safe first, is the last number of the combo. If you set all wheels to the same number the safe should open by dialing directly to that number and turning to 7.

Because the wheel pack comes out, you will not be able to see directly where the wheels line up while dialing as suggested. Instead you will have to observe where they line up after dialing and removing the wheel pack to see which wheel might be out of alignment with the others. Very often on older safes we must set the wheels at one number knowing that it will open on 1 number + or -, or 2 numbers + or -. We may know what we are doing but it is often still trial and error to narrow down the exact working combo.

[Squelchtone]

And the 5th screw?

it's a decorative screw

update: ahh, I see the 5th screw's purpose now, a fire plug..

[Raymond]

Yeah Right! It attaches the wheel pack fire insulation cover to the back plate.

[TomNNY]

I tried the combination as Raymond described without any luck. So I have removed the red housing and it looks like there are 3 wheels each with a number of holes in them and a screw in one of the holes. The bottom one has a 1 on it, the middle is 2 and the top is 3. I did take the two straight head screws out in the middle of the center plate. I thought maybe it would pop off and allow me to take the 3 wheels out to look at them but it did not pop off. I did not try to pry it off.

I have attached three pictures of what the wheel housing looks like.

https://i.imgur.com/JCS9GAd.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/dWrRapf.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Hw9IOXY.jpg

Tom

[MartinHewitt]

The red cover has a small slot. This is where the wheels should be aligned. Put the wheel pack back on, then you have two options. Either you have a long sheet metal piece, that fits inside the slot, then you can dial Left/Right until the sheet goes in on wheel at a time, or you just look into the slot for another gate to appear.

[TomNNY]

I will give this a try. So as I turn the dial L-R and the sheet metal strip lines up, is whatever number on the dial that is displayed at the time part of the combination?

Tom