Working Area/Sizes of Keyways?

[boxtool5]

Is there a name for the “working area/size/height of keyways”? I would define the area as the “mostly vertical” space where a pick can be maneuvered up and down (from the top of the keyway to where a pick would bottom out). I am looking to design my next picks for the specific keyways/locks I am working on. Knowing the size (and bitting and pin lengths and if there is a name) of this “rectangular” area could help a great deal in designing “picks/snakes/rakes” with optimal dimensions, curves and angles. I know I don't need a specific pick for each lock, the picks wouldn't be limited to specific locks but I am thinking it would be nice to have picks optimized for specific locks.....

[Squelchtone]

I'd call that the keyway..


or...

[GWiens2001]

Gordon

[boxtool5]

I guess I should've been more specific? I sort of meant the "top" end, "working end" where the pins are, depending on the keyway's profile, above all or some of the wards (warding?). From a machinist's perspective I find it aggravating that this area doesn't have a name, isn't dimensionned down to four decimal spaces, there are no lists with the height of this space for every common keyway, no trigonometry tables and charts.....
For my own use, I am now calling it the Goldilocks zone. No pun intended but it did happen that way.

[Squelchtone]

I guess I should've been more specific? I sort of meant the "top" end, "working end" where the pins are, depending on the keyway's profile, above all or some of the wards (warding?). From a machinist's perspective I find it aggravating that this area doesn't have a name, isn't dimensionned down to four decimal spaces, there are no lists with the height of this space for every common keyway, no trigonometry tables and charts.....
For my own use, I am now calling it the Goldilocks zone. No pun intended but it did happen that way.

Could you post a picture or a drawing or diagram of what you mean? I kinda still don't get it.. do you mean the empty tunnel your pick gets to operate in underneath the pins but above the tension wrench? I still just call that the keyway or area under the pins. Why does it need to have a name and measurements? are you not in favor of just calling that space the keyway?

[billdeserthills]

I guess I should've been more specific? I sort of meant the "top" end, "working end" where the pins are, depending on the keyway's profile, above all or some of the wards (warding?). From a machinist's perspective I find it aggravating that this area doesn't have a name, isn't dimensionned down to four decimal spaces, there are no lists with the height of this space for every common keyway, no trigonometry tables and charts.....
For my own use, I am now calling it the Goldilocks zone. No pun intended but it did happen that way.

Sounds like you are describing the 'bible'

https://www.apexaccesssecurity.com/what ... ock-bible/

[stratmando]

As far as designing picks for a Key, want to say, I mostly Always see picks as being flat, if you bend the tip to the left or or to the right, or curve it, it can extend reach in a keyway.

[GWiens2001]

It sounds like he is referring to the space occupied by the top of the blade of the key.

The top of the key blade is not always flat. Paracentric key blades are pretty common. Yale, a lot of Abus locks and others do not have a straight key blade where the pins are contacted.

Gordon

[Squelchtone]

https://imgur.com/a/40lYyd5

https://i.imgur.com/9JkQdR8.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/5McnxQZ.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/R9WZnw4.jpg


Wow, I really thought this would be easier, like “Yes, there’s a name for that space it’s: ______” or “No but, I know exactly what you’re talking about”….
But since pictures are worth a thousand words…(kwikset used for simplicity, NTS).

I would really like to create/have diagrams of these areas (I sometimes do trigonometry for fun). I like the art aspect of freehand filling and shaping a pick, I like the engineering aspect of seeing, understanding how and why it works (or seeing why it doesn’t, or where it could be improved).

Having this “height dimension” for common keyways (then adding bitting spacing and pin heights) would be like creating a “map” to the lock. The intersections of those lines are all of the possible destinations your pick may need to go.
I might try making my own version of a LISHI style decoder/pick someday, these dimensions will be essential.
I will use my height gauge, etch some vertical and horizontal lines in steel for my own “pick making rulers”.
I will make CAD prints of these “grids” and maneuver “picks” over them, and easily be able to see where they can and can’t reach, where there maybe interference, etc.

Unless I come up with something better, I will be mapping some Goldilocks zones this weekend.

[boxtool5]

Thanks for fixing the pictures

[GWiens2001]

Can you measure the keyway space of this LOB padlock?





Gordon

[Kenneth_V]

I do not know if that space has a defined name but you will hear it referred to in picking terms as the accessible, usable or functional portion of the keyway. This functional space becomes limited by the warding which restricts the ability of the pic to manipulate the key pins without catching or rubbing on the warding. The length of key pins play a roll as a low cut in the front followed by a high cut limits the ability to lift a back pin without over setting the front one

You need to look at the keyway in 3 dimensional terms as all 3 axis are applicable as well as bitting. The ability to feel the feedback as you pick pins with out the pick rubbing on the warding is extremely important.

I think that knowing the dimensions of the functional space is almost irrelevant as the ability for the pick to work is dependant on many other factors that will vary from locks with the same keyway. Dead core, spring strength, bitting, pick thickness ....

Thinking outside the box is great. Hopefully you come up with something new.

[Kenneth_V]

thinking outside the box is where Lishi pics came from

[stratmando]

thinking outside the box is where Lishi pics came from

Kenneth, in 2013, Lishi only made Auto Picks/Decoders, I posted on here, It would be Cool if Lishi made one for Schlage, Kwikset, and Master Locks, was not sure it was possible due to lifting the Higher pins in the Back. Figure it would take Enlarging the Keyway on paper and see if a tool could reach behind, then I believe they DID come out with them in 2019, I believe. For Keyways like Gwiens showed, if One could make one for that would for sure be a Challenge, can't even imagine it. But don't think Impossible, Yet. It's a tough one.

[boxtool5]

I drafted a Weiser keyway this weekend, I am still working on a few of the unknowns.* I realize this is a 2D representation of a 3D space. The numbers aren't perfect, they don't really need to be. I'm just starting with the min/max measurement of basic, relatively straight keyways. If you were to start at the top of the keyway (with no pins in the way) and wedge a taper gauge in there until it's stuck...

What's that height measurement?
Is there any empty space under the extended pins?
If there's no space can you move pins without interfering or over-setting others?

*The best I could measure tells me a #9 pin in a Weiser lock only needs be raised 0.008 to reach the shearline (plug diameter, EPD?). Sorry, I still don't know enough to use 100% accurate terminology (but I will get there). I still don't know where the best "0.000" Y datum should be, I have it as the shearline ".338" above the bottom tip of a #9 pin.
I'll be able to post the CAD drawings soon, for anyone who cares. All I have to play with at the moment are; Weiser, Kwikset, Schlage & a few Master cylinders (from a 6121), so I am starting with these.