Re-fitting a Mk IV Manifoil lock

[glerwill]

I became familiar with using the Mk IV manifoil lock at work (UK MoD). My grandson (10) expressed an interest in safes and I got him a cheap one for last xmas. Then I thought he would appreciat a real 'james bond' safe, so I bought a used one on ebay with a known default combination of 40 50 60 0. I adapted an ammunition box and fitted it to that. The lock was open to start with but you have to take a small brass ring off by un pinning and unscrewing to be able to fit it to a new location and during fitting it the manifoil became locked.

The combination has not changed, the back is open, I have not dismantled the lock except for the brass ring and pin.

To be honest, I'm not sure what to do next.

I would welcome your suggestions

[GWiens2001]

Pictures may help.

Gordon

[glerwill]

Apologies

front and back (closed) photos http://www.justsafes.co.uk/manifoil_mk4.htm
dismantled photos https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/combination-lock-manifoil-lock-mk-iv-1772916471
video of correctly working one opening https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=dkQFfzOJVhk&ab_channel=e3locks (spindle and pin show in this video)

to the best of my knowledge there is nothing wromg with this lock except what i have done incorrectly fitting it

steps taken

- backplate has 3 'pinholes' in circumference - i made sure these were the 'right way up' in relation to the crowsfoot mark by comparing to photos online
- at this stage, the lock was open - I first tried screwing down the brass circle, but it would not go all the way down - then i tried screwing the spindle from the other side, and insert pin, this worked but caused the lock to lock.
- I tried to open it using '6 turns to left to clear', 5 to right ending on 40, 4 to left ending on 50, 3 to right ending on 60, 2 to left ending on 0, all against crowsfoot mark - fail
- I'm guessing that whilst open the number 0 should be against the crowsfoot when the pin is inserted - but i couldn't see how to do that and instructions miss this step online. Now of course, I would like to recover the situation, but do not know what to do.
- I can add a picture of how assembled there is a glass plate if required, but it is like the example shown http://www.mksafelock.com/Used-Locks.php. So there is the front of the lock about 2mm of metal then the glass plate and spacers, then the back of the lock.

some people describe the lock as chubb, but originally made by chatwood milner. I don't have a change key, but then I dont want to change the combination

many thanks

Graham

[GWiens2001]

Graham, I know what one looks like, so stock pictures do not really help. What I don't know is exactly which parts you took off and have questions about whether it is correctly assembled.

Gordon

[glerwill]

https://imgur.com/2yC27hI

[glerwill]

https://imgur.com/5FEmvEP

[glerwill]

So - what bits did i take off
well, it started in one piece but in order to fit it to the metal lid, I

- took off the locking pin from the spindle
- unscrewed the round brass piece from the spindle and took it off
- took the three parts on the other side apart - the spindle/numbers dial - the metal ring that goes around it and the black circle beneath it

there was a lead shield and underneath that 2 screws going through the black circle with no nuts on the other side
the 2 screws were too short so i replaced them with longer ones which meant that I had to take the lead shield off which meant undoing one of the other 2 screws that held it in place - i used tippex to mark the positions in case that was important. I fitted 2 nuts to the 2 screws that did not have any nuts and drilled holes in the lid so that the nuts would not foul. I lined the tippex marks together and put t back together

at that point, as previously mentioned i checked that the three pin holes in the black disk were in the same position as pictures i found on the internet

the crows foot is at the 'top' as you can see in the imgur images and the brass locking bar is opposite the crows foot ( i off course wonder if this is 180 degree wrong...)

then as previously explained when using the numbers spindle to screw into the brass circle, and fitting the pin, it locked.

I have tried the default combo and failed to open it. I have experience from work of opening the combination, so don't believe i am making a mistake at that point.

Apologies for any obvious errors I have made, I appreciate it may not be possible to recover the situation but would welcome any suggestions.

[GWiens2001]

Thank you for the extra pictures. It helps me to visualize what you did. I see that you did install the spline key (small L shaped brass piece that keeps the drive cam from unthreading from the spindle), so that is good.

I also suspect that the dial may be 180 degrees off. A simple test of that is to add 50 to each number of the original combination. If the total is larger than 100, then subtract 100.

So if the original combo was 20-30-40, try dialing 70-80-90. If it was 27-75-30, try dialing 77-25-80.

If the lock opens, then the drive cam (the brass piece you unthreaded from the spindle) is off by 180 degrees.

Gordon

[glerwill]

thanks, i will give it a go

[glerwill]

I moved the brass wheel 180 degrees and reinsterted the pin.

sadly it still did not open.

Graham

[stratmando]

Maybe try to add 25, AND subtract 25, in case lock installed in a different orientation? Can't hurt.

[Squelchtone]

I moved the brass wheel 180 degrees and reinsterted the pin.

sadly it still did not open.

Graham

When you say pin, do you mean the spline key? I'd like to get on the same page with the terminology so I can better understand what you mean.

Do you perhaps mean the L shaped brass bit that slides into the dial spindle and into the grooves notched out of the drive cam so that they are mated together? That's what we call a spline key.

Photo: bottom left
http://lockwiki.com/index.php/File:Mani ... mEklof.jpg

Thanks,
Squelchtone

[glerwill]

Hi, sorry it's been a while. New images @ https://imgur.com/a/NwVeVgw

Essentially, I had another go and fitted it to a 4mm mild steel plate - the countersunks are countersunk - the small bolts that hold the dial mounting on go through the steel plate - I took the glass plate out of the equation - I bought a change key.

Result

- there is no 'slop' in the fitting which there was prevously
- I cant open the lock on 40 - 50 - 60 - zero
- I can insert the change key part way by wiggling the dial back and forwards, but I can't fully insert the change key (see picture)
- this is with it all fully assembled and locked

any further suggestions gratefully recieved

PS I have the instructions for changing the combination, but there is a possibility I am misunderstanding them

Graham

[mastersmith]

Graham I think this may just be the wrong dialing sequence. I saw earlier you were using 5 times, 4 times, 3 times, 2 times. It should be 4 times, 3 times, 2 times 1 time. Those disc's in the lock are the "wheel pack", each one has a cut out on it's edge. When properly dialed those cut outs will be aligned under that brass "bar" that spans the width of the wheel pack. Your last turn will allow that bar to drop in the cut out's and retract the bolt.

[glerwill]

thanks I will give it a go