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Safe Options and Security Levels

Thinking of upgrading your door security? Getting a better deadbolt or padlock? Getting a new frame or better hinges? Not sure what brand or model to go with for your particular application? Need a recommendation? Feel free to ask for advice here!

Safe Options and Security Levels

Postby kingpin2 » 3 Sep 2021 2:01

Hello,
I am located in Europe and the safes available to me follow the EN1143 standard.

I am a security minded professional, but I am not a locksmith. I consider security in layers and I do not expect the safe itself to protect the items in it on their own.

My situation is this:

The lock on my current safe seems to be wearing out or have some sort of functional problem. At the same time, it has become too small for my needs. The safe itself is creatively hidden, bolted to a wall, behind two locked doors. Entrance to the building is done in such a way where one either has to cause a lot of noise to break into the building or force unauthorized access which is directly across the street from a police station. This is in a low crime, non-residential area. The inhabitants around are a tight community and we know each other. Some unknown person behaving out of character is likely to draw attention.

Regardless of this situation, I may be biased. I would like solid advice. My perspective on security is that it should be cost effective, which means that the cost of the solution should make sense compared to the value of the items inside.

Here is my other challenge. It seems that the safes I should be getting, based on my best guess are too large to hide. I like the idea of hiding it because while hiding isn't a security mechanism alone, it does make it more difficult to access...until it is found. It may buy more time. Also, this means that based on the interior layout, there would be no way to obscure the safe from persons paying a visit. This is a concern for me because it may draw unwanted attention.

Any advice or thoughts would be helpful.

Thank you
kingpin2
 
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Re: Safe Options and Security Levels

Postby stratmando » 3 Sep 2021 8:13

I would include Electronic Security, Alarm(Audible or Silent), Camera(s), Notification, Glitter Bomb?(Would be Great for YouTube) or UV.
Good Luck
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Re: Safe Options and Security Levels

Postby kingpin2 » 5 Sep 2021 7:14

Thanks.

I've got ahold of the security standard, which, in Europe is more vague and requires a bit of decoding. Based on the location this will be placed, I've got a good idea that the level of safe I'll choose will significantly minimize risks.

The other security methods, along with a couple others will be in place.

Now, I have a question about the lock, because there are options. This is where I am a total newbie.

I have these lock options

single key - may or may not be an issue
Single key and combination lock
Dual keys/Dual custody - In my view, dual custody is not a need and would not provide any additional security
A variety of electronic locks

I have enough understanding of electronic locks to know that most are terrible and the electronic locks that are not are far more expensive and usually have different access control use cases. So, I would prefer to just not use them at all.

The single key lock would be a Mauer lock. I assume (but I hate to assume), that most criminals would not have the skillset required to pick a safe grade lock (if there is such a thing?). Do Mauer locks have a good reputation? Is it worth it to have two locks such as a key and combination lock? Is there a significant benefit?

I ask because I have seen guys who are obviously quite good at locksport pick similar Maurer locks in 2 minutes. Then sites that sell a specialized tool for picking these kinds of locks say that a skilled picker could get the job done with the right tool in 15 minutes. As I am not a lock picker, what is the perspective on this?

Thanks!

As an aside, I find lock picking very interesting and have played with the idea of taking it up as a hobby.
kingpin2
 
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Re: Safe Options and Security Levels

Postby Squelchtone » 5 Sep 2021 8:19

Hello,

Just so you don't waste your time, we are a US based forum so most of our members are not familiar with the safe standards where you are or which brands of safes and locks are available in your consumer market. You may want to reach out to the Toool.nl locksport group, or visit a locksmith shop near you that is also known for safe openings. They would have a better sense of what works and what doesn't as long as they are not just out to sell you something from their showroom floor.

In the US 99% of safes use numbered dial combination locks, while in Europe keyed locks seem to dominate how safes are locked. If you browse youtube, you will probably find a video of a specialized tool opening every brand of keyed safe lock you can think of. Now you just have to pick the one that seems harder to pick than the others or one that requires the most custom tool.

Good luck,
Squelchtone
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Re: Safe Options and Security Levels

Postby MartinHewitt » 5 Sep 2021 15:02

But we do not only have US people here ...

EN 1143-1 is good if you insure your stuff. If someone wants to put inside 50000€, grade 1 is enough. Because the replaces the value buying the cheapest grade 1 is doing the job. Security is not relevant. Everything else is difficult. What safe to buy, when the response to an alarm system is there in 30 minutes? What safe to buy, when I have important family jewels to protect? A grade 1 (or 0/N) has walls stiffened with some steel bars and the gap is filled with mineral wool, cat litter or expanded clay balls. It is maybe a bit better than an RSC. Grade 2 is not much better. Many are also filled with loose stuff and have only minor upgrades compared to grade 1. Starting with grade 3 all of them have solidly filled walls. Usually it is steel fibre reenforced concrete (SFRC). They have more hard plates and glass with a relocker. Security level is probably similar to TL-15 or a bit more. In most cases the bolt work is quite simple, the complexity similar to US bolt works. Some grade 3 safes have more complex bolt works which make an attack also more difficult, but usually these start at grade 4, because these need to have two locks. I think that level is comparable to TL-30. But even so there are nice grades there are always more and less secure safes within each grade.

This is probably a grade 1 safe (180kg, angle grinder and probably prybar): https://cache.pressmailing.net/thumbnai ... 57.JPG.jpg

All safes of grade 1 to 3 have in their basic version only one lock. Some offer an optional second lock. If you insure the safe you can't replace it with a different lock model, because the lock is part of the safe's certification. This makes somehow sense, because if there is behind the lock a bracket this depends on the thickness of the lock. Or the glass plate with a hole for a key lock would need to be swapped to get the proper hole for a mechanical combination lock.

I don't think a key-only safe is a good idea, because the key needs to be stored somewhere over night, when on holiday or in the pool, and a burglar with completely search the location to find it. My preference for home usage is a mechanical combination lock, for business and convenience an electronic lock. Dual custody is usually done by using the advanced features of an electronic lock. For additional security two of these locks or an additional key lock. There are also possibilities to install locks that offer key locks as backup, e.g. the dormakaba Code Combi B30 or the Wittkopp Primor. These can be stored off-site. You didn't really write where you are based. So I can only give recommendations for the market in my country. My preference for a mechanical combination lock is the S&G 6630, but it is extremely difficult to find with a safe. The standard lock here is the LG 3390, but that should really be avoided. The higher grade LG 1985 is of better quality. Electronic locks to avoid are the Polish GST/Solar locks and the Burg-Waechter Secutronic. The Code Combi B30, Wittkopp, M-Locks and La Gard locks are ok. Difficult to predict when they fail, but often it is just the keypad. I have been given the recommendation to replace locks every 10 years to be on the safe side.

I have never heard about a burglar in the last 50 years, which did pick a safe lock. Tools are lock specific and incriminating. Mauer has many locks. If you mean the President 71111, then it is quite good in its class. Very durable. But the cheap keys are cast Zamak and can break. If one key is damaged or lost, then get a replacement lock with a full set of keys very soon. My picking time is 15 to 30 minutes. The standard requires 5 minutes. A nice key lock is the S&G FAS (6880, 6860, 6990), because the key is small. If you get a detachable key bit you can attach it to the key ring.

If you need a safe with more space on the inside it needs more space on the outside and is more difficult to hide. Also more secure safes will be bigger and more difficult to hide. A safe will draw the attention away from the other stuff in your home (maybe unless it is key-only). So there might be a benefit in not hiding it. But in home burglaries most safes are stolen. I have read about safes up to 500kg which were successfully stolen. I think often the safes are not properly bolted down and private homes have often quite soft walls. I tried to bolt down a safe in a house from the 1960s. No standard way was so strong, that I could not break out the safe with a large screw driver. So I do really recommend getting a heavy safe.
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Re: Safe Options and Security Levels

Postby kingpin2 » 5 Sep 2021 16:43

Thanks for the insight Martin.

So you are saying the practical difference between grade I and grade II is not that much higher? I ask because from the products I see, the walls are thicker and weights are 2.5-3x higher, which would suggest that a heavier material is in use. The price also matches that.

The EN1143 standard says that grade II safes should be 5x more resistant than grade 1 safes. In practice, do you know that to be true?

Thanks again
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